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Phantom Lady Copyright

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topic icon Author Topic: Phantom Lady Copyright  (Read 8480 times)

Lush

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Phantom Lady Copyright
« on: July 20, 2009, 10:48:01 AM »

Hi- just wondered if anyone could clarify something for me. I'm currently using some images from the original Phantom Lady (circa 1948) and wondered what was the position on copyright. I know the comic was originally published by Quality Comics and is now owned by DC Comics - but is this ownership just copyright over the character or the actual artwork? I note from this site that PL 13 is copyright free - but what about the artwork in other other issues in this series?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm using some of the images and retouching them in photoshop to make images that I will be using to promote my jewellery line. Anyone any ideas on legality of this? I love Phantom Lady but not enough to get into a fight with DC!
Have a good week everyone. :D
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phabox

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 10:58:36 AM »

I'm no copyright expert but by and large if you stick to using the Blue and Red  Fox Features version rather then the character that DC Comic 'claim' to own you should be on safe ground.

-Nigel
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narfstar

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 12:11:56 PM »

You might contact Bill Black at accomics.com he usually plays it safe but uses PL a lot. I believe he stated that DC has trademark on all the Quality charcacters they use except PL because she had been passed around and no one has trademark on her
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Lush

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 12:25:03 PM »

Thanks for the info guys - I really love the style and content of PL. Really shocked when I saw the DC version of PL - looks nothing like her and her costume is a totally different colour - very bizarre!
;-)
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phabox

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009, 01:20:28 PM »

There's been three or four Phantom Lady's since 1941, the yellow and green look IS original and is the one which DC still uses to this day though in a VERY modified form.

I suspect though to most comic fans the late 40's Blue and Red Phantom Lady is the most iconic.

Bill Black still uses that costume ( somewhat reduced) if not the name for his Blue Bulleteer character.

-Nigel
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John C

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2009, 01:30:24 PM »

Copyrights shouldn't be a problem.  However, since you're doing business work, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the relevant Catalog of Copyright Entries book and keep a copy of the pages where the book would have been renewed.  Then, if you get a Cease and Desist letter from someone, you can mail back copies with a note to the effect of "nyah-nyah."

As mentioned, trademark is a little touchier.  You know those stories of Disney suing the heck out of kids' hospitals for using Minnie on a brochure?  If a company doesn't vigorously defend a trademark, they lose it.  Since DC owns the Phantom Lady trademark, that's at least a potential problem.

Don't consider this definitive, because I'm definitely not a lawyer, but my sense is that you should stay away from the Phantom Lady and Sandra Knight names and the original/Quality costume.  That's the yellow and green version from 1940 to around 1942.  Everything else should be fine.

But...as Nigel points out, Bill Black's AC Comics use a character based heavily on the Fox Phantom Lady, so that might also be worth investigating.

The key, I believe, is that you don't want to imply in any way that DC (or AC) produces or endorses your products.
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Drusilla lives!

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2009, 04:10:41 PM »


Copyrights shouldn't be a problem.  However, since you're doing business work, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check the relevant Catalog of Copyright Entries book and keep a copy of the pages where the book would have been renewed.  Then, if you get a Cease and Desist letter from someone, you can mail back copies with a note to the effect of "nyah-nyah."

As mentioned, trademark is a little touchier.  You know those stories of Disney suing the heck out of kids' hospitals for using Minnie on a brochure?  If a company doesn't vigorously defend a trademark, they lose it.  Since DC owns the Phantom Lady trademark, that's at least a potential problem.

Don't consider this definitive, because I'm definitely not a lawyer, but my sense is that you should stay away from the Phantom Lady and Sandra Knight names and the original/Quality costume.  That's the yellow and green version from 1940 to around 1942.  Everything else should be fine.

But...as Nigel points out, Bill Black's AC Comics use a character based heavily on the Fox Phantom Lady, so that might also be worth investigating.

The key, I believe, is that you don't want to imply in any way that DC (or AC) produces or endorses your products.


That's interesting... so if I drew a piece of "art" involving some of my favorite old comic characters and used it as my avatar (as I have done for this site) would you think I would be violating someone's copyright or trademark?  I thought it sorta falls under "fan" art, where there really isn't any material gain on the part of the creator... direct or indirect.  In fact, it's really like free publicity when you think about it.

I think a true problem would arise if a likeness was to be used for the support of ancillary business purposes or direct financial gain, as might be the case here with regard to using an image for the promotion of the jewellery line, which might somehow be construed as an endorsement of said product.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 04:15:48 PM by Drusilla lives! »
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John C

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2009, 04:37:49 PM »


That's interesting... so if I drew a piece of "art" involving some of my favorite old comic characters and used it as my avatar (as I have done for this site) would you think I would be violating someone's copyright or trademark?  I thought it sorta falls under "fan" art, where there really isn't any material gain on the part of the creator... direct or indirect.  In fact, it's really like free publicity when you think about it.


There is no "fan" provision in copyright or trademark law that I'm aware of (something once kinda-sorta did exist, but that's since been considered binding in decades), but I would guess that a single non-copied image used for a non-commercial purpose would HAVE to fall into "Fair Use" territory. 

And the "free publicity" argument never works, so I wouldn't recommend trying it.  Most organizations feel it's the equivalent to a "for a good time" comment on a bathroom wall--it may well be publicity, but they'd just as soon control it themselves.  There's probably a legal aspect to this, too, since if they acknowledge you as an "undeputized publicist" and you say something incorrect about their products, it may open them up to false advertising lawsuits.  But that's just a guess.

A few years back, Marvel tried to solve this problem by creating an online license--you could use any image you wanted from them, as long as you accepted the contract, notified them of your use, and agreed to remove the use if their team didn't think your use was acceptable.  They stopped, because people cried about censorship or some nonsense, but I have to wonder--with the number of places where creators prominently use Superman's insignia, for example, is the trademark sufficiently diluted that Warner Brothers wouldn't win a lawsuit if someone ripped it off?  Between bootleg action figures, websites, cheap trinkets, and so forth, which they never pursue, how valid is their monopoly, at this point?
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Drusilla lives!

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2009, 05:49:50 PM »


There is no "fan" provision in copyright or trademark law that I'm aware of (something once kinda-sorta did exist, but that's since been considered binding in decades), but I would guess that a single non-copied image used for a non-commercial purpose would HAVE to fall into "Fair Use" territory. 

And the "free publicity" argument never works, so I wouldn't recommend trying it.  Most organizations feel it's the equivalent to a "for a good time" comment on a bathroom wall--it may well be publicity, but they'd just as soon control it themselves.  There's probably a legal aspect to this, too, since if they acknowledge you as an "undeputized publicist" and you say something incorrect about their products, it may open them up to false advertising lawsuits.  But that's just a guess.


Wow, things have really gotten weird in my opinion... I guess I'm really from a bygone era.  IMO it really sucks just about all the remaining fun that comics use to have years back... not much left I'm afraid.

That "undeputized publicist" thing is really interesting... with some quick thought on the matter I personally think it rather foolish.  It assumes that a "fan" would intentionally use the characters in a malevolent or unfit manner, perhaps even with regard to larger social norms, which seems to run contrary to the intentions of most fans, although there is always the possibility of such misuse... but this is not just limited to "fans."

When one considers the matter further, it is based on the assumption that the holder of a copyright or trademark of a fictitious character "knows" what is right for society at large with regard to the use of said character.  But in my opinion this is false... unless of course they are the original creator of the character in question.  Then their vision of the characters persona is the true one in all cases and is for them to do with as they wish.  But in the case of characters (with no longer existing direct lineage to their original owner), I think knowledge of their past depictions and actions, and an adherence to those depictions and behavior within certain definable limits should be allowed in the case of material created for non-profit use (i.e. "fan" art).   Most fans, or at least ones avid enough to create an original (non-profit) work, would, in most cases, possess such knowledge as to boundaries and actions for a proper and dignified use of the character... well, just as much so as a larger entity, such as say Marvel for example.  For none but the original creator has "the real" vision of the fictitious persona.  And to claim otherwise on these grounds smacks of censorship in the form of a stifling of freedom of expression... and in my opinion is very dangerous to our democratic foundations.  What would be next?  Marvel disagrees with a critic of the Spider-Man comic and sues for slander or defamation of character?

Again, this is with regard to non-profit use of a character only.  People should have the right to creatively express themselves with the existing characters if there is no material gain in the activity... and furthermore, they shouldn't be held accountable if they succeed in popularizing a character, that to me only means the "owners" have done a disservice in their use and interpretation.  Of course, if there is a really egregious misuse, then of course I feel they have the right to take some form of action... but that should be on a case by case basis.

Quote
 
A few years back, Marvel tried to solve this problem by creating an online license--you could use any image you wanted from them, as long as you accepted the contract, notified them of your use, and agreed to remove the use if their team didn't think your use was acceptable.  They stopped, because people cried about censorship or some nonsense, but I have to wonder--with the number of places where creators prominently use Superman's insignia, for example, is the trademark sufficiently diluted that Warner Brothers wouldn't win a lawsuit if someone ripped it off?  Between bootleg action figures, websites, cheap trinkets, and so forth, which they never pursue, how valid is their monopoly, at this point?


Again, I think in the case of non-profit "fan" use it's silly and time consuming... unless there's a really egregious misuse of a character.   But I guess what we have right now is a "don't ask, don't tell" type of thing regarding this matter... at least until someone foolishly or unintentionally presses the issue.  Which I am NOT inclined to do... just in case anyone out there is seriously listening to our conversation.  :)

All I ever wanted was to have fun... I think that's what comics should be about right?  :)
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Lush

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2009, 07:05:52 PM »

Wow - this really seems to have opened a can of worms! I'm slightly 'tarting-up' the images and only using images of PL/Sandra Knight out of context of the comic - I'm also in no way using the name or the PL logo. I just really love the look of the pre/early 50s comics and I love the way she's drawn (heaving bosoms and all).  I'll do a bit more research, but hope I'll be ok.
Thanks for all your really helpful advice on this.
;-)
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John C

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2009, 07:23:08 PM »


That "undeputized publicist" thing is really interesting... with some quick thought on the matter I personally think it rather foolish.  It assumes that a "fan" would intentionally use the characters in a malevolent or unfit manner, perhaps even with regard to larger social norms, which seems to run contrary to the intentions of most fans, although there is always the possibility of such misuse... but this is not just limited to "fans."


And that's the point, isn't it?  They can't tell if someone's Scarlet Witch porn (look, I'm just gonna come out and say it:  Mess with the ears all they want, she's still dressed as a Playboy Bunny) is a tribute, parody, or attack, without investigation.  They also don't have time to read every bit of fan fiction to make sure it doesn't veer into gross mischaracterization.

In principle, I agree with you, really, but I also see why the companies can't agree without doing themselves harm.

That their own writers are worse is irrelevent...


When one considers the matter further, it is based on the assumption that the holder of a copyright or trademark of a fictitious character "knows" what is right for society at large with regard to the use of said character.  But in my opinion this is false... unless of course they are the original creator of the character in question.


My thinking on the issue is that, rather than "property," copyright is more like a (temporary, in theory) monopoly on distribution and trademark is more like identity.

For copyright, the bargain is that creators donate to the public domain without needing to find patronage in exchange for the right to determine how and when the thing is released for a while.  (I think that speaks to your censorship issue--it IS censorship in a way, but it's supposed to be temporary.)

In the case of trademarks, I can see it being touchier.  The law is messier in this regard, but when you think of it as part of corporate identity, it'd be like someone using your e-mail address or a picture of you in a brochure.  Allowing it basically puts everybody's reputation into the hands of the unwashed masses.


And to claim otherwise on these grounds smacks of censorship in the form of a stifling of freedom of expression... and in my opinion is very dangerous to our democratic foundations.  What would be next?  Marvel disagrees with a critic of the Spider-Man comic and sues for slander or defamation of character?


That's sort of ironic, since the last time someone did that, the solution in the industry was censorship...but of their own work, not that of the critic (the Comics Code).  However, criticism is also covered by Fair Use, so you can't go after them for any such thing.


Again, this is with regard to non-profit use of a character only.  People should have the right to creatively express themselves with the existing characters if there is no material gain in the activity... and furthermore, they shouldn't be held accountable if they succeed in popularizing a character, that to me only means the "owners" have done a disservice in their use and interpretation.  Of course, if there is a really egregious misuse, then of course I feel they have the right to take some form of action... but that should be on a case by case basis.


Which isn't too far off the reality, as I understand it.  The problem is the concept of "dilution of trademark," which says that the concept (a brand name like "Kleenex," "Xerox," or "Google") has become so commonly misrepresented as to be useless.

So, if Disney doesn't at least contact and (I'm guessing) get some sort of liability disclaimer from every bakery who sell Pluto-decorated cakes, someone far less scrupulous can claim dilution of trademark and use the image for...less friendly purposes.

But as I understand it, most of the people hit with Cease and Desist orders usually don't suffer any more harm than, y'know, a load of laundry.  Normally, if it's not a sales thing, they're more likely to get a contract in the mail that allows them to use the image for that specific purpose.


Quote
 
A few years back, Marvel tried to solve this problem by creating an online license

Again, I think in the case of non-profit "fan" use it's silly and time consuming... unless there's a really egregious misuse of a character.


I give them credit for at least acknowledging the issue and offering a cooperative way out of it.  If it had caught on, they could be fairly liberal with their policies (and friendly to their customers) without losing any of their rights.  And they don't need to look like jerks by stomping on twelve-year-olds using a Wolverine-like character in an online video game (which they've done...repeatedly).


But I guess what we have right now is a "don't ask, don't tell" type of thing regarding this matter... at least until someone foolishly or unintentionally presses the issue.  Which I am NOT inclined to do... just in case anyone out there is seriously listening to our conversation.  :)
All I ever wanted was to have fun... I think that's what comics should be about right?  :)


Didn't Dan Didio actually say (a few years back) that comic fans aren't interested in fun anymore?  He meant humor titles, but the statement out of context explains so much of the last twenty years or so...
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John C

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2009, 07:29:58 PM »


Wow - this really seems to have opened a can of worms!


I'm sure it was already open and you just nudged it a little.


I'm slightly 'tarting-up' the images and only using images of PL/Sandra Knight out of context of the comic - I'm also in no way using the name or the PL logo. I just really love the look of the pre/early 50s comics and I love the way she's drawn (heaving bosoms and all).  I'll do a bit more research, but hope I'll be ok.
Thanks for all your really helpful advice on this.
;-)


Yeah, again, double-check the copyright renewals (ask if you need a walkthrough) just so you have something for your records.  But otherwise, you're using (presumed) public domain material altered to your liking with no DC-owned identification, so everything should be fine.

I didn't mean to sound critical or frightening.  I just wanted to make sure I was as clear as I could get so you knew where the pitfalls might be.

Phantom Lady is historically significant in this context, too, by the way.  That Bill Black guy?  When he started printing Phantom Lady comics, DC indeed went after him.  He changed the character (trademark-wise) to someone else to avoid the lawsuit.
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phabox

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 07:59:51 PM »

Of course Phantom Lady was a creation of the Iger shop and when they moved on from Quality they took her and a few other characters with them which is why she later appeared in books published by Fox and Ajax-Farrall.

By the time DC Comics bought Quality out in 1956 Iger and Phantom Lady were loooong gone.

Thats the reason why Bill Black assumed the character had fallen into the public domain and began publishing his own short lived Phantom Lady title in 1972.

It seems that DC had other ideas not to mention more lawyers on their payroll which is why Black backed down.

-Nigel
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Ed Love

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »

When DC bought Quality, there was no transfer of copyrights. What DC bought were the active trademarks. Strangely, some of the 1950s Quality stuff (Blackhawk, Plastic Man for example) was renewed by Busy Arnold's widow while DC did renew most of the 1950's issues of Doll Man Quarterly though they never published a Doll Man comic. Before that date, I found no notice of renewals on the Quality books (or Fox for that matter). So, as far as copyrights are concerned, Phantom Lady is public domain, except maybe the Ajax-Farrell issues which I've not done any research on.

However, there is the issue of trademarks. Even if DC mistakenly thinks it has the copyrights to the Quality characters, they do have the trademarks. However, they have been so set on changing characters substantially from their original appearances, that a case could possibly be made of an abandonment of the trademarks at least appearance-wise if they don't do anything substantial with the original characters in advertising or covers. But, I'm not a lawyer so that's only supposition on my part. DC has deep pockets and one better be sure where they stand on the legal side of things.

I recently wrote an article on my research into some golden-age and 1950s copyrights as well as a couple of links where you can research it further. http://www.geocities.com/cash_gorman/copyright1.html
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Yoc

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2009, 09:07:07 PM »

And a fascinating read as well Ed!
Thanks for writing it and I hope if you go to Washington again you'll update us here.
:)
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Drusilla lives!

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2009, 10:55:25 PM »


And that's the point, isn't it?  They can't tell if someone's Scarlet Witch porn (look, I'm just gonna come out and say it:  Mess with the ears all they want, she's still dressed as a Playboy Bunny) is a tribute, parody, or attack, without investigation.  They also don't have time to read every bit of fan fiction to make sure it doesn't veer into gross mischaracterization.

In principle, I agree with you, really, but I also see why the companies can't agree without doing themselves harm.

That their own writers are worse is irrelevent...


Yes, but that is and always has been the problem... no one can define what pornography is, but everyone apparently knows it when they see it.  Without getting into a debate about it, in my opinion using that argument would be shoddy reasoning on their part.  For in my opinion, in the end it is the consensus of the public at large which is to define what is appropriate and what is not (and it really is quite nebulous, changing with the times and fashions as eluded to by the very afore mentioned clich
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 01:17:38 AM by Drusilla lives! »
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narfstar

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2009, 11:14:51 PM »

Bill Black prominently displays the Fox Phantom Lady on his cover and promotes them with the name Phantom Lady. DC does not own the trademark to PL
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Ed Love

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2009, 12:02:16 AM »

There is a "loophole" with trademarks and stories that are public domain copyright-wise. You can reprint the stories and use the public domain artwork including logos with the names attached as long as it's from work that is public domain including covers. You cannot create new logo art with that name. Thus, you can reprint the first Tarzan story along with the cover-art depicting him and the title of the story without worrying about stepping on ERB's trademarks.

Furthermore, Black is also very inconsistent with what he reprints, how he reprints them and his handling of copyright and trademark issues along with claims of ownership that are doubtful. He makes changes to stories without telling that he is doing so or why. You cannot look at his actions and get an idea of what's legal or not other than as a starting point for further research. I get most of his superhero reprints, but I double check every entry for my site that comes from there.
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JVJ

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2009, 01:18:21 AM »

Some sad facts of life, DL:
1. Liking something doesn't imbue you with ANY rights whatsoever.
2. Self-regulation only works with the people who obey the rules (witness our current economic situation)
3. Comic books have ALWAYS been a business and always will be.

And the lawyers are running the companies and always will. The fact that ANY art gets produced at all is a miracle (IMHO).

Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Drusilla lives!

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 01:43:44 AM »


Some sad facts of life, DL:
1. Liking something doesn't imbue you with ANY rights whatsoever.
2. Self-regulation only works with the people who obey the rules (witness our current economic situation)
3. Comic books have ALWAYS been a business and always will be.

And the lawyers are running the companies and always will. The fact that ANY art gets produced at all is a miracle (IMHO).

Peace, Jim (|:{>



You don't know how much that hurt me to say that (the bit about the Green Giant)... for I do feel there is a great deal of "art" in the comics I liked (or should I say loved). :(

I guess if there's any solace to be found in all this it's:

1. Not even the original creators are imbue with ANY rights whatsoever with regard to some of their work.
2. I'm confident and know that my intentions are/were good... even though no one would ever believe it.
3. And we don't have to buy them.

And I agree completely, it's always been a miracle (a true gift) when it has (the creation of art that is)... and not only in the subculture of comics but in society at large as well.  :)

I should add that in many ways this reminds me of something I was reading in Birren's "History of Color In Painting" regarding the early masters and how they would covet their techniques and methods, especially of creating paints and pigments... sad to think of all the beauty lost to the world for such selfishness.  Well, at least back then the keeping of those "secrets" were indeed, literally a matter of self-preservation.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 02:08:58 AM by Drusilla lives! »
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OtherEric

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2009, 05:49:08 AM »

I've seen several PD collections of the Superman cartoons from the 40's.  At least one makes a point of saying on the cover text "all cover art taken directly from the original cartoons".  You need to be careful; but there is a fair bit you can do with PD material even if Trademarks are involved.
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Ed Love

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Re: Phantom Lady Copyright
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2009, 08:47:31 AM »

Exactly, the Fleischer Superman cartoons are a classic case. I think it was even brought up to me in my first visit to the Library of Congress on the relationship of copyrights, trademarks and public domain as something that had fallen in public domain copyright-wise but was obviously a very active trademark and the original material it was based on was still copyrighted.
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