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Tokio or Tokyo

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topic icon Author Topic: Tokio or Tokyo  (Read 9709 times)

Astaldo711

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Tokio or Tokyo
« on: August 24, 2009, 08:38:08 PM »

I've only ever seen the spelling as "Tokyo" but now in two GA comics - Airfighters Comics and America's Greatest Comics it was spelled "Tokio". Is that an alternate spelling or our way of snubbing them?
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John C

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 09:18:58 PM »

It's hard to say, but it could very well be a combination of things.  First and foremost, though, the Japanese wouldn't really care how the city name was spelled, because they don't use the Roman alphabet.

I was going to suggest that the writers might've thought they were getting in a small jab by over-Latinizing the name, but then it occurred to me that Italy was also an Axis power.  Given that Italian doesn't recognize the letters J, Q, W, X, or Y (except in foreign words), that may have been an era concession, somehow.  Maybe.

A web search confirms that this is the common spelling throughout Eastern Europe and a few Western European countries.  That makes me think that it was simply the dominant spelling and the "Greek" spelling won out in the following generation.  If I had to guess (with no knowledge of Japanese beyond being able to tell you where the cat is in the room--thank you, PBS), I'd suggest that the pronunciation might be a hair closer, and could have become more common to help the occupying forces communicate (tok-yo versus toke-ee-oh).

Of course, I'm talking out of my...let's say "hat," since that's a comparable idiom, and it doesn't really answer your question.  It's an interesting topic, though, and I might take another crack at getting an answer overnight.
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kquattro

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 09:52:00 PM »

Given that Italian doesn't recognize the letters J, Q, W, X, or Y (except in foreign words)...


I need to correct you here, John.

My last name is Quattro. That begins with a "Q". And I'm Italian.

(it means "4")

--Ken Quattro
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Astaldo711

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 12:22:07 AM »

Well, I found that Tokio is a Japanese band and Tokio Hotel is a German band. I found a thread on a website but it was in Spanish. From what I could infer, Tokyo is Romanized and Tokio is correct Spanish. It could be nothing more than the writers just spelling it phonetically.
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John C

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2009, 01:06:12 PM »


Given that Italian doesn't recognize the letters J, Q, W, X, or Y (except in foreign words)...

I need to correct you here, John.
My last name is Quattro. That begins with a "Q". And I'm Italian.
(it means "4")
--Ken Quattro


Yeah, I diid mean K, and Q came through, presumably by proximity to the W on the keyboard.  That, and a friend just finished a summer session for her Masters in Italian, which involved readings in...I forget which region, but it's one of those things where they only call the language a "dialect" to preserve the illusion that Italians only speak Italian (sort of like the relationship of Catalan to Spanish).  There, they do have a K but no Qs, I think it was.

And it's worth mentioning that there are words with the "missing" letters, but the letter's still not in the alphabet in a formal sense.  Like accented letters in English.  Resume is quite different from r
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kquattro

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 03:28:29 PM »

Yeah, I diid mean K, and Q came through, presumably by proximity to the W on the keyboard.


I'll buy that!

Quote
Back to the original subject, though, I notice a lot of official documents use Tokio and Tokyo pretty much interchangeably...etc.


I think you're way over-thinking this, John. It's most likely that the various spellings of Tokyo/Tokio were merely simplifications. Kind of like "OK" for "okay", or "Mackinaw" for "Mackinac". Comic books were basically written for youngsters and a phonetic spelling would avoid any confusion as to the pronunciation.

And I don't doubt that there was an intention to slight the Japanese capital as well. The US was at war with Japan and any time the writers could get a swipe in at the enemy, they would.

--Ken Q
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John C

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 04:20:26 PM »


I think you're way over-thinking this, John. It's most likely that the various spellings of Tokyo/Tokio were merely simplifications. Kind of like "OK" for "okay", or "Mackinaw" for "Mackinac". Comic books were basically written for youngsters and a phonetic spelling would avoid any confusion as to the pronunciation.


That was my first thought, too.  But when I checked Google to see where it was used (figuring the predominance would be, as you suggest, material for kids), the most striking example I saw were government documents referring to the female anti-American radio personalities as "Tokio Rose."  Surely, the military (for example) wouldn't be "simplifying" for its own agents, would they?

Plus, again, I think it's worth considering that most of Europe still calls the place Tokio, so it's not an invention any more than if one referred to the Middle Eastern nation as Irak, which is a common European spelling.

So, I'm really thinking that it's just one variant spelling of several winning out.  To give a larger example of what I'm talking about, I suspect that everybody reading this remembers that, not all that long ago, the Indian city of Mumbai was exclusively known as Bombay in the English-speaking world.  The city's name didn't change, just the way we spell it.  The pronunciation isn't really either.  Likewise, Beijing, Peiping, Peking, and other names for the same Chinese city fall into a similar category, though there's a little bit more politics and complexity to that story...yet the duck dish is Peking-style, while the Olympics were held in Beijing and your letters generally get mailed to Peiping.

(I have way too much fun with things like this.  And I left out the possible cryptological implications of using names with fewer uncommon letters, which is certainly a possible consideration for the military...)
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kquattro

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 04:59:33 PM »

Plus, again, I think it's worth considering that most of Europe still calls the place Tokio, so it's not an invention any more than if one referred to the Middle Eastern nation as Irak, which is a common European spelling...


Again, phonetics. How many European countries pronounce "Y" as "ee"? The Romance languages all pronounce "I" as "ee". Can't speak to the Slavic or Germanic tongues. And I'd wager the same can be said for your example of "Irak". If no "Q" is in their alphabet, then "K" is the likeliest choice phonetically.

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I have way too much fun with things like this.


As long as you are entertained, John, that's all that matters.

--Ken Q
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JVJ

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 11:49:48 PM »


Again, phonetics. How many European countries pronounce "Y" as "ee"? The Romance languages all pronounce "I" as "ee".

--Ken Q


Right, Ken!
It's not called "Gay Paree" for nothing. That's how the French pronounce it, Paree. "i" = "long e", just as in "buenas dias" uses the same "long e" for "i" in Spanish. "Tokio" or "Tokyo" is TOTALLY phonetics - an attempt by Western phonetic cultures to translate Eastern phonetic sounds. The "i" spelling was unlikely to be a slur of any kind, just one of the options - one that is still common outside of the U.S.

my 2
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jfglade

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 03:56:27 AM »

You will see the "T-o-k-i-o" spelling in books that were printed well before America entered World War II. Spellings of the name of foreign countries simply undergo changes. Witness the evolution of "Viet Nam" into "Vietnam." It was still "Viet Nam" when I was stationed there, but now that the earlier spelling is historical, the second spelling is considered "correct.

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Yoc

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 04:05:47 AM »

So you were in Vietnam!  Interesting.
I hope you don't mind a silly question.
Were comics very common there? 
We know they were quite common among soldiers in WW2.
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Astaldo711

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2009, 10:12:38 AM »

Hey jfglade, whether you were a ground troop or stationed after the war, thanks for your service!  :)
I think it was a combination of what people have suggested. It was easier to pronounce if spelled Tokio, it may have been the vernacular then, and the writers just might not have given a crap. I've also seen Japan called Nippon although I believe that's an indigenous term.
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jfglade

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 03:45:05 PM »


Hey jfglade, whether you were a ground troop or stationed after the war, thanks for your service!  :)


(I hope I understand how the "Quote" feature works.)
I was drafted, so my visit to Nam was not my idea.

One thing that hasn't been addressed directly is the Great Vowel Shift, but I don't want to be the one to open that particular can of peas (and Qs).
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 05:13:30 PM by Yoc »
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rez

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 04:15:37 PM »

That's an interesting line of thought.
I wonder which characters dominated the readership there?
3 to 1 odds Marvel ruled the roost with allot of FF and Spidey fans over Supe and Batman.

So you were in Vietnam!  Interesting.
I hope you don't mind a silly question.
Were comics very common there? 
We know they were quite common among soldiers in WW2.
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jfglade

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 04:37:16 PM »

Yoc:

Comic books were very common in Viet Nam, probably during the entire "American War." One of the reasons was that PXs carried comics, so comic books were sold in Viet Nam. A few were even distributed by the Army (I don't know if the other branches of the Armed Forces did something similiar or not) in the form of authorized reprints of George Baker's "Sad Sack" and, of course, Will Eisner (and ghosts) showed how and why troops should perform Preventive Maintance in 'PM', a magazine which was distributed mainly to mechanics but which tended to turn up in unlikely places.

For that matter, "underground Comixs" were common in Viet Nam after 1968, although they certainly weren't sold in any PX or PX trailer. 'Grunt Magazine' was a black and white "slick" which was actually edited and published (with government funding) by Infantry troops who were short-timers, according to the editorial page in the only issue I saw (and it may have been the only issue that ever saw print, for all I know) in 1969, and it reprint comics material both from 'Car-Toons' magazine and from Gilbert Sheldon; I was amazed that the Army was reprinting 'Wonder Warthog' stories.

Comic Books tended not to be thrown away but gravitated to places like airports, barber shops (visits to barber shops were madatory), Enlisted Men's clubs, and hospital wards, where they provided short term reading for those who were waiting or had some time to kill.

'Stars and Stripes',  the same Army newpaper for which Bill Mauldin drew Willie and Joe in W.W. II, had weekly Sunday editions which had decent sized reprint sections featuring 'Thimble Theater with Popeye'': "Mandrake the Magician": "The Phantom"; "Smokey Stover" and other Sunday Pages from World War II era newspaper strips. I feel safe in saying that 'Stars and Stripes' reprinted many of the same comics they had originally reprinted during W.W.II.
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Yoc

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 04:50:54 PM »

Interesting stuff Jon!
I bet people would love to see that 'Grunt Magazine'.
My Dad has a soft cover collection of Willie and Joe I read years ago.  Topical but still enjoyable for me.

Thanks for the info!
:)
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jfglade

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2009, 05:06:35 PM »

Rez:

You lose. By far the most represented company was Charlton, probably because they had the best distribution deal with the PX system.

Bear in mind that many of the troops who would set down and read (or at least look at) a comic book weren't "fans." However, from personal experience, I would say that Marvel was more popular with more troops than DC books, at least while I was there. The American War in Viet Nam had the distinguishing feature of being America's longest war, so it is entirely possible that at some point in time there would have been more avid readers of DC comics "in country" than of Marvel comics, and at some point it is entirely likely that all of the Americn comic book publishers from the sixties and early seventies had some distribution in the PX system.
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jrvandore

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2009, 06:56:53 PM »

One of the cartoons that Warner refuses to allow to be aired is called Tokio Jokio...from 1943.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvA1zphaeTQ
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JVJ

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2009, 07:17:16 PM »


That's an interesting line of thought.
I wonder which characters dominated the readership there?
3 to 1 odds Marvel ruled the roost with allot of FF and Spidey fans over Supe and Batman.

So you were in Vietnam!  Interesting.
I hope you don't mind a silly question.
Were comics very common there? 
We know they were quite common among soldiers in WW2.


When my brother was there, his favorite comic book was Daredevil, which I sent to him religiously every month. In college, I majored in "staying out of Vietnam" and managed to pass. I have great sympathy for those who served there. My brother came out whole. He was lucky.

Peace (IF ONLY), Jim (|:{>
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OtherEric

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2009, 08:12:25 PM »


One of the cartoons that Warner refuses to allow to be aired is called Tokio Jokio...from 1943.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvA1zphaeTQ


It's worth noting that this cartoon is in the public domain now; so "enjoy", if that's the right word.  It hasn't aged well is putting it mildly.
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John C

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2009, 08:55:47 PM »



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvA1zphaeTQ

It's worth noting that this cartoon is in the public domain now; so "enjoy", if that's the right word.  It hasn't aged well is putting it mildly.


To be fair, I actually found it amusing.  Mostly for historical reasons, since--minus the racial stereotypes--I've seen all the same jokes (possibly from Warner Brothers) applied to American troops just as rigorously.

Well, that, and I've worked on projects that were "rushed into service" with pretty much the same approach as that submarine.
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Yoc

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2009, 09:22:43 PM »

I've seen quite a few of the now non-PQ WW2 cartoons.
The Pop-eye - 'You're a Sap, Mr. Jap' (1942) was more ratial than this WB one.
The Snow White parody 'Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs' (1943) was wildly racial but a well made Bob Clampett cartoon that also wont be seen anytime soon.  I don't think it's on any of the WB Golden Collections but I could be wrong.

-Yoc
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rez

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2009, 04:51:01 PM »


Rez:

You lose. By far the most represented company was Charlton, probably because they had the best distribution deal with the PX system.

Bear in mind that many of the troops who would set down and read (or at least look at) a comic book weren't "fans." However, from personal experience, I would say that Marvel was more popular with more troops than DC books, at least while I was there. The American War in Viet Nam had the distinguishing feature of being America's longest war, so it is entirely possible that at some point in time there would have been more avid readers of DC comics "in country" than of Marvel comics, and at some point it is entirely likely that all of the Americn comic book publishers from the sixties and early seventies had some distribution in the PX system.


Well, that's why I always stop at 3 to 1 odds as then I can live to run another day :P
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narfstar

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Re: Tokio or Tokyo
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2009, 07:50:21 PM »


Rez:

You lose. By far the most represented company was Charlton, probably because they had the best distribution deal with the PX system.


Consider also that is why Charlton put out so many non-continueing character war books. They also had the most westerns for awhile as well as other non standard fare. Leads to speculation that the long underwear type were not as popular with the troops as war and western. Charlton definetly filled a niche.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 05:13:31 AM by Yoc »
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