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Week 196 - Boy Comics 32

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topic icon Author Topic: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32  (Read 5106 times)

crashryan

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2019, 12:53:41 PM »

Positronic, I was not arguing that Tim Tyler's Luck had any sort of historical significance or great influence on the history of comics. I was indeed, as you suggest, presenting a forgettable factoid: Tim Tyler's Luck was wildly popular in Europe while it wasn't in the US. I cede to you the academic high ground on the overarching question of this or that strip's historical significance. I'm simply saying it's interesting.
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paw broon

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2019, 04:03:57 PM »

I got your point crash.
I've just sent off an article that deals in part with MMM and superheroes - depending on whatever definition folk have - who were in British comics and storypapers, some well before there were American MMM.  And before anyone reminds me of it, I am aware of the American "pulp" heroes.  But I'm not sure many of them got as far as the U.K.
Some of these heroes are available on CB+
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2019, 06:05:38 PM »


I've just sent off an article that deals in part with MMM and superheroes - depending on whatever definition folk have - who were in British comics and storypapers, some well before there were American MMM.  And before anyone reminds me of it, I am aware of the American "pulp" heroes.  But I'm not sure many of them got as far as the U.K.


Street & Smith, one of the largest (and oldest) American pulp publishers, did license British and Australian editions of The Shadow, and there were foreign editions of Doc Savage (Canadian & Mexican), as well as translations in Spanish (for Spain and South American countries). Possibly French as well, I'm not sure.

Despite the fact that those characters were rather direct influences on the first generation of American superhero creators (Jerry Siegel, Bill Finger and Gardner Fox all admitted as much), Americans were rather late in their development of the prose fiction superhero (and supervillain). Characters like Jean de La Hire's L
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2019, 09:34:14 AM »

Positronic, I have serious doubts that Street and Smith had anything to do with the Australian
Shadow. The character was created by Jeff Wilkinson for FREW publications in 1949. The character is London Playboy Jimmy Grey who wore a latex facemask and who operated like a masked version of the Saint. Since the details of the character are nothing remotely like the US Shadow, I doubt they ever asked S and S for permission. I'm guessing that around that time the popularity of the Lamont Cranston character was winding down, so perhaps the Aust. character didn't even get picked up on their radar. The character ran for 191 issues, the second longest run for an Australian created character.
The character was translated into Portuguese and reprinted in Brazil as O Sombra. Some of these are on CB+ if you look under AGUIA NEGRA.  I didn't ever see a Lamont Cranston Shadow comic until I picked up the abomination that Paul Reinman did for Archie comics in the mid-sixties. Actually now I think about it, the first time I became aware of Lamont Cranston was the Mad Magazine spoof. (Bill Elder?) Great stuff!
Cheers.           
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2019, 01:25:28 PM »


Positronic, I have serious doubts that Street and Smith had anything to do with the Australian
Shadow. The character was created by Jeff Wilkinson for FREW publications in 1949. The character is London Playboy Jimmy Grey who wore a latex facemask and who operated like a masked version of the Saint. Since the details of the character are nothing remotely like the US Shadow, I doubt they ever asked S and S for permission. I'm guessing that around that time the popularity of the Lamont Cranston character was winding down, so perhaps the Aust. character didn't even get picked up on their radar. The character ran for 191 issues, the second longest run for an Australian created character.
The character was translated into Portuguese and reprinted in Brazil as O Sombra. Some of these are on CB+ if you look under AGUIA NEGRA.  I didn't ever see a Lamont Cranston Shadow comic until I picked up the abomination that Paul Reinman did for Archie comics in the mid-sixties. Actually now I think about it, the first time I became aware of Lamont Cranston was the Mad Magazine spoof. (Bill Elder?) Great stuff!
Cheers.         


No, no... I never said they did. Different character altogether, and what S&S was licensing to other countries were the Shadow (prose fiction) crime novels which appeared in the ongoing pulp The Shadow (subtitled at various time as The Shadow Detective Magazine or The Shadow Magazine, or in its final years as a digest, The Shadow Mystery). There was also an Aussie version of the Shadow radio drama, using the original American radio scripts, but employing an Australian cast to re-enact those scripts, rather than just importing the American transcription discs.

At any rate, the American Shadow magazine (which had shrunk from standard pulp size -- which was the same height and width as American comic books of the Golden Age -- to digest size in 1943, partly because of wartime paper shortages, and partly in a company-wide effort at "modernization") ceased publication in 1949. I have some doubts about whether the magazine stories would have been still being licensed abroad or in translation by then. The radio drama continued broadcasting through 1954, though I'm not sure if the Aussie version lasted anywhere near that long.
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paw broon

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2019, 02:53:57 PM »

Well done positronic. I feel the beginnings of an article on the French and other Euro early heroes and villains thanks to your mention of Nyctalope, Fantomas, Judex etc.  I have the Judex movie on dvd, and there are re-releases of early Fantomas and Arsene Lupin also available.
As for L'Ombre - L'Ombra in Italian - there is yet another version, this time by Alberto Ongaro with art by the wonderful Hugo Pratt which appeared at the start of the '60's.  There are reprint books available.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16041382-l-ombra
But pre-dating this Shadow by a good bit is L'Asso di Picche - L'As de Pique in French.  Taking much from Batman and, of course, from The Ghost Who Walks it's a great MMM read.
Pratt's Shadow is just a tad better done than the
"the abomination that Paul Reinman did for Archie comics"  Panther.
As for Fantomas, there is a S. American version which has been running for years. Starting life as a Mexican comic, it was quickly available in other S.American countries.  And relatively recently there have been a couple of new G.N's published in France.
Spring-Heeled Jack.  Other variations of the original have appeared in books and comics, incl. one book by Philip Pullman.  But a version with a lot of art by Dave Gibbons appeared in a British weeklies Hornet and Hotspur.  And there was a short lived female version.  And there was a historical version in Victor?

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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2019, 07:17:30 PM »

It occurs to me in thinking about how America was so successful in exporting its popular entertainment (and here I'm thinking of both the Hollywood movie industry, as well as comics) worldwide, was in applying Henry Ford factory-production methods to entertainment. In effect, subordinating creativity and authorial privilege to marketability, elevating the character or product itself over the author of the work. What was most important was to insure the regular unimpeded flow of product to potential consumers waiting to relinquish their monies in exchange for it. That frequently meant obscuring the creators by hiding their work under "house names" owned by the publishers. Instead of waiting until a creator was ready to deliver his work to consumers, it became paramount to make sure the product went on sale in a regular, timely fashion -- to train consumers to expect to part with their money on a regular schedule.

If the stewardship of an intellectual property is left to its original author, said author will frequently not exploit said property with maximum commercial efficiency. The creator's need to produce wealth for himself is balanced against his personal ability or desire to expend effort to satiate consumer demand. One man can do (or is only willing to do) only so much by himself, or even with the help of a small crew of hand-picked assistants. Publishers (or film studios), on the other hand, can employ as many hands as possible in a factory-system of entertainment production, and steadily ramp up production to meet demand. In fact, they become experts in creating conditions designed to stimulate that consumer demand.

In America, the person most responsible for creating the comics industry wasn't himself a creator. He was William Randolph Hearst, the publisher who founded what would become King Features Syndicate -- in retrospect, the very first comic publisher. In many respects a reprehensible individual, nevertheless he loved his comics and worked tirelessly to promote them, market them, and build an empire based on an ever-growing assortment of comics characters. Heart was a true robber-baron, and a model to emulate for later U.S. comic publishers like Harry Donenfeld (the man behind DC Comics) and Martin Goodman (the man behind Marvel Comics). Hearst had an eye for talent, and when he could create synergy around promoting the talent behind the characters, he used that to his advantage. At the same time, when subordinating the individuals responsible for producing the product to the product itself worked to his advantage to increase his empire, he used that. He learned early that it was important to own the things others created, either at his specific direction, or what he was able to discover himself by instinct when looking through submissions.

A true creator who is interesting to look at in contrast to a figure like Hearst was Edgar Rice Burroughs. Burroughs created a number of entertainment franchises all by himself, out of whole cloth. Barsoom, Tarzan, Pellucidar, The Land That Time Forgot, Carson of Venus, etc. He was a good enough businessman to maintain and promote the copyrighted franchises for his own benefit, and was the first popular fiction writer to incorporate himself. He was adept at creating synergies with other media like film and comics, to extend his franchises into new markets. Yet in some ways, he fell far short of exploiting his creations' maximum potential for generating wealth. Companies to which Burroughs licensed his intellectual properties frequently accrued far more profit from his creations than Burroughs himself did, even though Burroughs was able to maintain and control ownership of his characters. Eventually, Burroughs became publisher of his own books, although it took him a while to work himself up to that stage.

Recognition and demand for product for the Tarzan franchise was great, yet Burroughs produced less than 30 Tarzan books himself. Compare that to something like The Shadow, which was owned by publishers Street & Smith, and also appeared in other media like radio, film and comics. Unlike Tarzan however, on just the prose fiction publishing end of things, The Shadow appeared in over 300 published novels over the course of two decades -- at its peak The Shadow magazine appeared every two weeks with a fresh novel for more than a decade. The vast majority of the Shadow novels were written by Walter Gibson, but his name never appeared on the stories. Instead they were credited to Maxwell Grant, a house name Street & Smith maintained so that they could easily purchase Shadow novels from several authors to meet consumer demand. Gibson turned out to be amazingly prolific, so in actuality the need to employ additional authors was curtailed by S&S. The fact that most of the Shadow novels were actually by the same author gave the character a cohesiveness that other pulp heroes like The Phantom Detective (a competing magazine directly inspired by the success of The Shadow, whose publisher employed over a dozen different writers working under the house name Robert Wallace) never had. But despite being of inferior quality, The Phantom Detective managed to appear in 170 issues of his own magazine, which outlasted the better-selling Shadow magazine by four years, proving that there's a lot of wealth to be generated in the entertainment industry by using the Henry Ford assembly-line method of factory production.

And then there's Superman. It's hard to imagine that the character could have been any more successful if he had been owned and controlled by his creators, Siegel & Shuster. Obviously THEY would have wound up far wealthier for their efforts in creating him, but would Superman ultimately have been as successful overall? My instinct says no. The profits that ought to have accrued to Siegel and Shuster mostly went to Donenfeld and his publishing company, later known as DC Comics, because Donenfeld employed factory-production methods, and knew both how to create, exploit, and meet consumer demand for Superman as a product. It's the same model used by William Randolph Hearst, the same model used by the big Hollywood studios, and the same model (even though the "product" was not entertainment) employed by Henry Ford.



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narfstar

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2019, 09:14:02 PM »

To me superpower or super-gimmick = superhero. I think the MMM work best in worlds of their own rather than with superheroes. Green Hornet, Tarzan, Phantom, are good examples of that. To me mixing them with superheroes or supervillains they don't fit. Other than Batman. I consider him in a class by himself as possibly having a super intellect.
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2019, 10:02:08 PM »


To me superpower or super-gimmick = superhero. I think the MMM work best in worlds of their own rather than with superheroes. Green Hornet, Tarzan, Phantom, are good examples of that. To me mixing them with superheroes or supervillains they don't fit. Other than Batman. I consider him in a class by himself as possibly having a super intellect.


But that still doesn't tell me what you define as a "superpower" or a "super-gimmick". A power ring? Powered exo-armor? A utility belt? A gas-gun that renders people unconscious? (You know, it still amazes me that some people believe such a thing as "knock-out gas" really exists. Anesthetic isn't the same, which is why it has to be administered by anesthesiologists.) The ability to talk to apes, or kill a lion or gorilla in physical combat, or animal-like developed senses & reflexes? A 'mystique' that causes people to wonder whether or not you may be immortal? Those are all great superpowers or super-gimmicks in my book (I'm just going to say that if it's not the former, then it must be the latter).

Hmm. I could certainly see an argument for saying that Batman works best in a world of his own, or Superman works best in a world of his own, or (most especially) the original Captain Marvel works best in a world of his own. Heck, you could easily argue that the Fantastic Four and the Amazing Spider-Man are as different as oil and water. They've all generated their own unique peripheral spinoff characters, supporting players, and antagonists, of course.

I can still recall when I was very young and first starting to read Marvel comic books, how it somehow "didn't feel right" to be mixing quasi-SF characters (FF etc.) with street-level crime-fighters (Spidey & DD felt like they belonged to the same world), or with magical characters (Dr. Strange) or with mythology-based characters (Thor & Hercules). It always struck me that those different background orientations for viewing the world didn't have any business mixing. That's the whole point of superhero universes or superhero teams though, isn't it? It would be too boring if all the characters were too much alike. Take the Justice Society as one example... does Johnny Thunder (a character whose own strip was basically a humor comic) really belong in a comic book with the Spectre (the Old Testament ghost of righteous vengeance)?

Come to think of it though, I really can't see the difference between the Green Hornet and Batman (it came down to a choice between boxers and briefs, I'm guessing). Aren't they basically the same guy, with Batman being a little richer and Fight-Clubbier? And for that matter, even less of a difference between Batman and the Phantom, except that the former's more inner-city, while the latter's more globe-trottery. Okay, Batman's got the belt, AND way more gadgets, I'll give you that. If it's the villains that make the difference for Batman being a superhero, then Dick Tracy's a superhero, too. If it's brains, then Doc Savage, the Shadow, and Sherlock Holmes qualify as superheroes, too. Seems to me it's more a question of where Batman gets his costume, but then how's it different from The Phantom's? My guess is it's just that you're used to seeing Batman team up with a bunch of different DC heroes, whether it's Superman in WORLD'S FINEST, or DC's most popular in JUSTICE LEAGUE, or just the team-up of the day in THE BRAVE & THE BOLD. Unfortunately the Phantom and Green Hornet aren't in the fortunate position of having that kind of great exposure.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 11:16:34 PM by positronic1 »
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crashryan

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2019, 10:41:06 PM »

Speaking of the Mexican Fantomas, I found a blog with some 15 or so issues:

https://historietanovaro.blogspot.com/search/label/Fantomas

The downside is that they're presented in some kind of slide-show viewer which takes forever to load and shows only a third of a page at a time. However, if you're (very) patient, there's some interesting stuff to be seen.

In addition to Fantomas the site hosts many other titles from Novaro, the major Mexican comic publisher.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 12:11:02 AM by crashryan »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2019, 02:22:54 AM »

there's a lot of wealth to be generated in the entertainment industry by using the Henry Ford assembly-line method of factory production.

Makes me think of Agatha Christie's comment of feeling like a sausage factory to grind out Poirot novels year after year.  ;)


To me superpower or super-gimmick = superhero.

After the last discussion the group had on the topic, or possibly while it was still going on, I realized that Superhero works better to describe the genre rather than quibble over who has powers.

Superhero as a genre includes superpowers, magic, superscience, etc., not that they all have to appear, but rather their appearance would not be out of place.

So if the Gotham City police were investigating a crime that turned out to be caused by a wizard, an extraterrestrial or a guy in an ugly costume who can fly, they probably have a procedure to deal with it. Whereas in a mystery novel, like say, Ed McBain's 87th Precinct, those elements would be hoaxes to be solved.
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crashryan

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2019, 04:58:12 AM »

Along with providing a sense of continuity, another use for house names was to prevent creators from developing a fan following which they could then leverage in page rate negotiations.

This talk of continuity reminds me of my experience when I was drawing daily strips for the Los Angeles Times Syndicate. (Warning: Forgettable Factoid ahead). The syndicate editor was convinced to the point of paranoia that every editor of every newspaper carrying comic strips was constantly looking for an excuse to cancel them, especially continuity strips. The easiest time to drop such a strip, I was told, was when there was a visible break in continuity. This was why the conclusion of one storyline should be written to blend into the beginning of the next. The local editor couldn't tell exactly where the story ended. The writer and I were chastised for running a British-style "splash panel" announcing an episode title. Similarly teaser captions like "Tomorrow: Spidey strikes!" were okay but "Next Week: New Story" (a Lee Falk standby) was out.

This also applied to creator's credits. A change in the strip's byline was supposedly an invitation for those local editors to drop the strip. This, they told me, is why so many strips were still credited the original creator decades after he'd left the feature. Think of how long Blondie bore Chic Young's sole credit before his successors were finally identified. This seemed odd because many strips carried the real team's credits in the signature block while the title slug named the original creator. I remember when I was a kid The Phantom was credited to Lee Falk and Ray Moore, even though Sy Barry had been signing the strip for years and Moore was dead.

I have no idea whether local editors really did spend their time looking for excuses to drop strips. Some rules of thumb the syndicate gave us seemed to have been left over from the 1930s (people don't like seeing snakes in comic strips, readers might be offended by a two-piece bathing suit). But the Syndicate certainly believed them.
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2019, 03:40:21 PM »

@ Crashryan - You're presenting the editor's thoughts in a negative perspective, but essentially he's got some accurate reasoning.

These are comic *strips* you're talking about, but all of the editor's logic seems to apply perfectly to comic BOOK collectors. If they're buying a comic, but not really enjoying it so much any more, they're still likely to at least wait until the completion of an ongoing story arc to stop buying. Or they wait until the creative team changes. We just assume that those points will be easy for us to recognize.

The usual trend of newspaper comic sections was that not only did the size of the strips shrink over time, but the number of strips shrank as well. Probably to make room for more advertising. SOMETHING, therefore, had to go, but discontinuing a strip abruptly was bound to anger at least *some* readers, so if an editor had a mandate to pare back the comic section to make room, he had to wait for an auspicious opportunity when it would upset the fewest readers. Since newspaper comics editors didn't have an exact guide to the popularity rankings of the strips they carried, if it were easier to drop one strip than another, then the one that presented the most convenient opportunity would probably be the first to go. All of these rules of thumb within reason, of course. PEANUTS, as a gag-a-day strip, might have been the one technically easiest to cancel, but some sixth sense of reader reaction probably told the editor not to do that.

EDIT -- You don't say exactly when you were drawing strips for the LA Time Syndicate, but the more I think on the subject of continuity/adventure-type newspaper strips, the more I realize that when viewed as a whole, the number of continuity strips had been declining since the 1950s, and in each succeeding decade fewer new continuity strips appeared. Those that did, did not on average have as long a lifespan as strips which had started in the golden age of adventure strips, the 1930s.

There's probably a lot of reasons for that, but it's interesting to observe that the decline in popularity of the continuity/adventure-type strip parallels almost exactly the declining readership of comic books, which since the mid-1950s or so became increasingly dominated by adventure, rather than humor, comics -- or dominated by illustrative-type drawing as opposed to cartooning. But that's precisely true of both mediums if you look from older to more recent decades, one decade at a time.

Even cartoon-style strips that had formerly been continuity strips (like Mickey Mouse and Popeye) were switching to the "safer" gag-a-day format by the 1950s. Were newspaper readers as a whole just getting lazier, and fewer and fewer were bothering to follow a 3-panel-a-day story from day to day, and week to week? That's one possibility, and another thing that occurs to me is that it's not just the story, but the illustrative-style art in a continuity/adventure-type strip that's the main attraction. Unlike the reduced set of lines used by the cartoonist, though, the illustrative-type drawing really suffers when reduced in size -- and that's what was happening decade by decade, the size of the panels was shrinking, making it harder to appreciate the artwork. Conversely, the cartoon-style comic is "read" and absorbed almost instantaneously, with readers rarely pausing to linger over it, admire the lines, and absorb its beauty.

I bet a statistical analysis of things like the number of continuity strips any given paper carried in any given year, versus the same comparative stats for cartoon/gag-a-day strips would be enlightening. The number of new gag-a-day strips started in each decade was probably huge (as were the number of failed strips), decade by decade, but I think that's only because editors were much more willing to take a chance on a new and unproven gag-a-day strip, compared to a new and unproven continuity/illustrative-type strip.

If your experience in drawing continuity strips for the LA Times Syndicate took place any time in the 1980s or later, the syndicate editor was probably being less paranoid, and more bleakly realistic, about the prospects for continued survival, than you gave him credit for. I can't comment on the snakes, but maybe he was on to something about the women in two-piece bathing suits -- after all, Fritzi Ritz got cancelled, while her plain, pudgy little niece Nancy (let's face it, she's not even a cute kid) just goes ON and ON...  I give up trying to figure it out, but those are the facts.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 07:06:23 PM by positronic1 »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2019, 12:43:16 AM »


Since newspaper comics editors didn't have an exact guide to the popularity rankings of the strips they carried

The newspaper I grew up reading would actually have a reader's poll to find out what strips people liked and which they didn't. They also asked for age and sex to figure out which groups liked which strips.

I was kind of surprised at how popular the Born Loser was with old people since it basically just seemed to run variations on 10 jokes. Then again when you get older you have trouble remembering things so maybe the jokes seemed new?  ;)

The drop in popularity for continuity strips and comics could be related to the rise of TV and how much story can be packed into a half hour show, whereas a continuing strip tended to be a little slower and repetitive (especially when a Sunday was included).

Oddly enough continuity strips do much better as webcomics than gag-an-updates, not that there aren't popular online gag strips, but story strips seem to get more readers.
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lyons

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2019, 02:08:12 AM »

The rules about what makes a superhero are pretty flexible.  The ancient Greeks possessed a deluge of heroes to rival any group from DC or Marvel, but their power was granted through a semi-divine process rather than through science.  Even Ant-Man's character was performed by Zeus when he turned himself into an ant.  If you include semi-divine heroes into the fold, superheroes have existed before writing was invented.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2019, 11:56:37 AM »

Marvel was pretty creative about this. Most of the original Marvel heroes had the same origin. Exposure to 'Radiation'. Radioactive spider, gamma bomb, radioactive rays in space (the FF) and Daredevil got hit in the head with a drum of radioactive waste!
But then Jack K. (I  believe it was he) decided, If it worked for the FF, why do it one at a time?  Eureka, Mutants, the X-men, the children of the atom! Kirby pioneered the idea of one origin for a group of 'Superheroes' So, 'The Inhumans' ! And then if you say they are Gods, you can have dozens. So, Thor and Asgard! Hercules and the Greek Gods, and later on, the Eternals! Then he pushed the envelope and had whole planets full of Superheroes in the forth world. And I just remembered the sons of Wundagore who at one point in marvel continuity went into space and founded their own planet! And again with Kamandi. Just send him into the future and hey presto another whole planet of extrahuman characters. Kirby realized that since the origins are probably impossible anyway, its just the world you create and what you do with the characters that counts. Oh and I forgot Wakanda and the black panthers! I'm sure you can think of other characters. And, now that I think about it, the concept of multiple versions of basically the same hero came from Otto Binder and CC Beck. DC and Marvel owe these guys a lot! So the multiple heroes in the latest Shazam movie is just going back to basics. And, (the old brain is on a roll) if Billy Batson's alter ego doesn't yet have a name, what about the rest of the family?       
Cheers!             
 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 01:45:40 AM by The Australian Panther »
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2019, 02:48:25 PM »


The rules about what makes a superhero are pretty flexible.  The ancient Greeks possessed a deluge of heroes to rival any group from DC or Marvel, but their power was granted through a semi-divine process rather than through science.  Even Ant-Man's character was performed by Zeus when he turned himself into an ant.  If you include semi-divine heroes into the fold, superheroes have existed before writing was invented.


I think most people would agree that superhero stories are the mythology of the modern world. I don't think anyone specifically argued against ancient mythology as superheroes, but I would bet it won't qualify under *someone's* personal definition of what is or isn't a superhero. (However, having characters like Thor and Hercules starring in their own comic stories set in the modern world makes it hard to argue that those characters aren't superheroes.) If you used biblical characters like Samson or David as an example, you'd get far less agreement, even though it's essentially the same argument you're making, just using a different mythography. People are more inclined to agree with this viewpoint if you're pointing to characters from Greco-Roman or Norse-Teutonic mythology (because they're the most common roots of European or Western culture) than if you're using Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Hebrew, or Egyptian mythology to make the same analogy.

Superheroes are a collection of tropes.
First of all, they have be heroes to begin with. If they aren't, then they have to be villains or anti-heroes before they're even qualified as "super"-anything. They have to make a decision to dedicate themselves to doing something -- fighting against injustice, protecting the innocent, ruling the world, or killing all the criminals. Just having some kind of superpower isn't enough, if all you use it for is to amuse your friends, or make life easier for yourself.

Then you just add whatever combination of the usual elements to the mix that seem appropriate:
- the origin story
- paranormal powers or abilities
- martial arts or unarmed combat skills
- uniquely identifiable costume
- code-name / secret identity
- unique antagonists in a similar vein
- specialized equipment / gadgets / vehicles
- secret base of operations
- support crew / confederates / specialist allies
- intelligence connections (how does he find evil to fight it?)

There may be a few others as well, but I think I covered all the most common ones. In my personal view, not a single one of those elements listed above is an absolute requirement, but clearly *some* combination of those elements is needed. Having just one or two may not be enough to make a character a superhero.

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paw broon

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2019, 03:42:21 PM »

Look, you'd all be better just using my definition of a superhero, even though it can apply to MMM.  ;)
(Are all superheroes MMM? But MMM are not all superheroes?) (Even if  a MMM doesn't wear a mask?) ???
This is just my idea of fun.  3 rules or 2 out of the 3 - and these rules got some considerable slagging off the last time I posted them.
1/ A superpower or powers; or a gadget, suit, invention, which lets the hero do extraordinary feats - incl. a gas gun.  This is fiction after all.
2/ a costume of some sort which in some way or many ways is different to most everyday clothes - even a mask and gloves like The Spirit. The costume can be the item which allows the hero to do extraordinary things. e.g. The Falcon's glider suit. Or The Night Hawk's mechanical wings.  Or Spring Heeled Jackson's boots and clawed power gloves.
3/ A secret identity.  Or perhaps the hero acts in secret as Supergirl did for years.
Anything else is just an adventurer.  And here's an example; Capitan Trueno is an adventurer/costumed adventurer as to us today his clothing is from centuries ago, and no secret as to who he is.  But El Guerrero del Antifaz is a MMM as he wears a domino mask and the world doesn't know who he really is. 
An American comic equivalent might be Black Cobra, a MMM and Jungle Jim, an adventurer. Or LSH superheroes and Fightin' Five adventurers.
I don't want this to be taken too seriously, please ::)

O.k. Time for you all to tear my rules to bits.  But I will say that they have stood me in good stead for many years.
...

The U.K. never had the sheer number of newspaper strips as American papers had. There were absolutely classic adventure strips of the highest quality e.g. Jeff Hawke; Matt Marriot; Buck Ryan etc and some wonderful humour strips e.g. Lobby Dosser; Andy Capp; Beau Peep; The Perishers, a strip which now and then had continued storylines; and in the Sunday Post, The Broons and Oor Wullie by Watkins. There were strips designed for younger readers the most famous being Rupert, the highest quality of the incredibly long run being by Alfred Bestall.  These were continuing fantasy stories about a little bear and his pals, told daily, then collected in annuals.
Worth searching out any of the above and also The Cloggies by Bill Tidy; Four D. Jones by Maddocks or Romeo Brown by Alfred Mazure and later by Jim Holdaway.  Jane you all know about, I'm sure.
Most strips are long gone but Andy Capp, Rupert, The Broons and Oor Wullie continue to this day.
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2019, 08:51:48 PM »

"MMM" seems redundant, assuming that is an abbreviation for "Masked Mystery Men". If they wear a mask, then their true identity is a mystery, which means it's a secret. However, if someone's a Mystery Man, it's irrelevant whether he's wearing a mask or not, if his true identity remains a mystery. Superman qualifies as a mystery man by virtue of the fact that (although he doesn't wear a mask), his civilian ID remains unknown (in other words, a mystery) to the public. You can be pretty sure that if a character wears a mask, his identity is a secret/mystery, so "MM" should suffice to indicate a character whose everyday identity is unknown to the public.

Doc Savage might be a superman or a superhero -- Street & Smith claimed as much in their house ads. BUT he's NOT a mystery-man because his identity is publicly-known. Doc Savage's range of talents and knowledge, as well as his physical capabilities, push the limits of what is possible for a normal human. Apart from his never wearing a costume of any sort, that puts him on the approximate same level as characters like Batman or Captain America. (Maybe I'm getting into a murky area with Cap, as the definition of his limits seems to vary over the years, depending on the writer.) "Peak Human" would be the technical definition, I guess. Since that represents the exact dividing line between merely human and superhuman, you can take your pick as to whether to be more or less inclusive in your definition of superhero. Clearly a peak human is superior to ordinary humans, and may even be superior in some respects to a true superhuman. A true superhuman might have superior strength, but superior brainpower or skills might give the peak human the advantage over the superhuman. Admittedly a bit of a grey area, but I suppose it depends on what kind of superhuman you're using for comparison purposes.

The (again, Street & Smith) Shadow IS a mystery-man, even though he doesn't wear a mask, because most of his face is obscured by the brim (or shadow of the brim) of his slouch hat, an upturned coat collar, and a scarf pulled up over his chin and mouth. Despite disguising himself using only ordinarily-available articles of everyday clothing (for the time... although the cape may have been a bit of a stretch), his appearance is very distinctive and thus the outfit becomes recognizable to police and criminals alike as "The Shadow". When he *doesn't* want to be recognized as The Shadow, he can go undercover wearing almost any kind of disguise where he passes as some ordinary person.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:10:44 PM by positronic1 »
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2019, 02:09:10 AM »

Please forgive me, I'm Australian and pushing people's buttons (winding people up) is in our DNA. We love to play mindgames with people. In the nicest possible way.
So my question, what about MMW's?  :D
Moving on, was thinking about MMwhatevers who have double identities.
Batman has been Matches Malone. I have always wanted to see a 12 issue maxiseries where Batman goes undercover as Matches Malone and stays undercover for the duration of the story.
Then there's CC Beck's wonderful Fatman the Human Flying Saucer, who was both the hero FATMAN (no fatshaming here!)  and could then transform into the Human Flying Saucer.
At one point. John Jonzz was portrayed as having an alien body and his humanoid (humanesque?) form was an illusion to make people more comfortable with him. 

There would be others, but I can't think of them right now.

Has this thread gone seriously off-track?

And does anybody really care? 

Cheers!       
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 02:12:29 AM by The Australian Panther »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2019, 03:40:28 AM »



I don't think anyone specifically argued against ancient mythology as superheroes


Well, generally, mythology was used as a way to explain things, how the world was created, why spiders spin webs, etc., which superhero comics don't usually do.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to learn of some story where the hero went back in time and used their powers/abilities to create some landmark, i.e. Super-Duper Dude carved the Grand Canyon. Although those stories tend to be more tongue-in-cheek.

And some old myths might have been created as pure entertainment or even crossovers, i.e. the Argonauts.

There's certainly overlap between the two types of stories.


Has this thread gone seriously off-track?


Off the track, across the field, and into the river.  ;)
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2019, 09:03:46 AM »



I don't think anyone specifically argued against ancient mythology as superheroes


Well, generally, mythology was used as a way to explain things, how the world was created, why spiders spin webs, etc., which superhero comics don't usually do.

Although it wouldn't surprise me to learn of some story where the hero went back in time and used their powers/abilities to create some landmark, i.e. Super-Duper Dude carved the Grand Canyon. Although those stories tend to be more tongue-in-cheek.

And some old myths might have been created as pure entertainment or even crossovers, i.e. the Argonauts.

There's certainly overlap between the two types of stories.


Exactly. Myths encompass both "origin stories" (explaining why things are the way they are) and tales of heroism and adventure (in other words, some stories are told purely for entertainment purposes... they didn't have TV). Some of the myths are commentaries on human behavior, and some may be tragedies. I sometimes wonder if some myths weren't done tongue-in-cheek, as well. In the "origin stories" category, you can fit things like Aesop's Fables, Rudyard Kipling's "Just So Stories", and the tales of Uncle Remus. Sometimes the stories can be cautionary tales or moral lessons as well, rather than just explaining how the world got to be like it is. And sometimes myths and folklore can fit into more than one of those categories at the same time. Sometimes I look at an Aesop's Fable story and there's really not much difference compared to a funny animal cartoon from the 1930s or 40s (and some of those explicitly reference the actual Aesop's Fables, rather than just making up an original story). The basic archetypes of storytelling haven't changed all that much in thousands of years -- it's more a question of details or focus. Not every character in mythology is heroic or villainous, though -- most combine (at least what we would consider) positive and negative attributes - and then again, sometimes attributes we would view as negative weren't viewed that way at all by the ancient Greeks. When certain aspects of ancient myths seem strange to us, it's usually because of changes in cultural values down through the centuries. But just like the Aesop's fables shown in '30s & '40s cartoons, we've got some comic books with background histories intimately tied to ancient myths -- Thor, the original Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman, and the New Gods. Those are comic book stories that are directly built on the foundations of mythology. If you compare those closely to the original myths, we have a tendency to re-write them to suit our own culture.

Nothing's really changed in thousands of years. Myths could serve multiple purposes then, as now. Crisis on Infinite Earths is an Apocalyptic story of the "Twilight of the Gods", AND a heroic tale of adventure, sacrifice, and tragedy, AND a creation myth of the universe multiverse (the Greeks had Pandora, the Hebrews had the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, and the DC multiverse had the Maltusian scientist Krona -- oh wait, but then the DCU had its own version of Pandora, too... who now seems to have been shuffled aside in favor of Dr. Manhattan? Uh... nevermind). Plus, the Greeks invented retcons and continuity implants thousands of years before anyone heard of comic books (unless you're counting those Grecian urns...), depending on who was telling the tale and when.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 11:25:13 AM by positronic1 »
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2019, 05:32:39 PM »


"the abomination that Paul Reinman did for Archie comics"


Well, you can certainly complain about the execution of the idea, but given the context of 1964/1965, updating The Shadow to a true superhero would seem like a natural idea; you can't blame them for trying -- and who's to say, if the Shadow hadn't had a decades-long career as an ongoing comic character, that he wouldn't have evolved that way, even as other long-running comic characters have evolved over the decades?

Aside from the extreme campy-ness of the Archie Comics superheroes written by Jerry Siegel, in essence the update plays a bit like a straight cross between Batman (the 1965 Batman) and Professor X, which to me, as a concept, is not entirely unworkable. Somebody should re-work that basic idea (leaving aside the camp component), and just change the names of the characters. I like the idea of a ninja superhero who has a variety of mental powers.

That said, and as much as I love the classic pulp hero version of The Shadow, some of the more modern interpretations (from DC and Dynamite) are even more heinous to me -- as is (speaking of Archie Comics) the current modernized version of Archie himself.

In defense of Jerry Siegel, I will say this. Here was a middle-aged man given the mandate to update The Shadow and make him "cool" for modern (1965) audiences. You can bet he was handed a bunch of current Marvel Comics to study as a guide to emulate, too. But I can see that what to a kid seemed cool (Stan Lee's flippant, sardonic dialogue), to a middle-aged man seemed like satire or parody -- a total "put-on" where somehow the kids weren't getting the fact that it was all tongue-in-cheek. At least, it's easy for me to see that would be the viewpoint of a grizzled adult, who just did a surface reading of "the magnificent Marvel style". One thing I admired about Siegel (and this was true of his latter-day DC scripts, as well as the Archie stuff) is that he had this very dream-like quality about him, a phantasmagorical sensibility where absolutely nothing was considered too unbelievable or "far-out". Most kids would want their superheroes taken a bit more seriously with some sense of gravitas, but Siegel wasn't alone in this approach, because I can see the same "as seen by a middle-aged adult" approach in the writing of Bob Haney and Arnold Drake, as well.
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paw broon

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2019, 05:37:30 PM »

Just to be clear, my quote was quoting from Panther's post.
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positronic1

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Re: Week 196 - Boy Comics 32
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2019, 06:08:10 PM »

There would be others, but I can't think of them right now.


The Shadow? He's really Kent Allard, but nobody knows that fact. Some of his closest associates think he's really Lamont Cranston, but he's only borrowing the real Cranston's identity. That is, when he's not posing as Henry Arnaud or Fritz the janitor (just a couple of his re-occuring false identities).

Or how about Moon Knight? He's really millionaire Steven Grant... or is he mercenary soldier-of-fortune Marc Spector? Except when he's driving a taxicab as Jake Lockley...

Even Daredevil (the Matt Murdock one) had his swingin' twin brother Mike Murdock.
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