[bchat]

I don't know if this was ever brought-up before, and I know the main site is still having issues, but in the "Small Press & Unsorted Files" there's "Flying Models v1 n3" (it's actually volume 61 number 3) and "Model Fun 4".  My feeling is that these two books should be moved to the "Centaur" folder, as they're from the same publishers (Hardie & Kelly) at the same address (215 Fourth Ave, New York NY) as the later Centaur books.

[Yoc]

Ok bchat, if you are pretty sure of it.
I've moved them to Centaur.  I can move them back if it's found incorrect down the road.
Moving scans around on GAC is pretty easy.  Creating or correcting category listings is impossible until the login error is corrected.

-Yoc

[kquattro]

My feeling is that these two books should be moved to the "Centaur" folder, as they're from the same publishers (Hardie & Kelly) at the same address (215 Fourth Ave, New York NY) as the later Centaur books.

I'm confused. Can you please elaborate on this information, bchat?

I am far from an expert on Centaur, but I don't see how it, H-K and Harle are the same company. Granted, it may be the same owners at the same address, but the intervening decade and wildly different content alone would make me hesitate as calling them the same company. Using that criteria, Max Gaines' All-American Comics company was the same as Entertaining Comics. Both had the same owner (or his son) and at the same 225 Lafayette Street address.

I'm not saying you're necessarily incorrect, I'm just asking for further details. Thanks!

--Ken Q

[Yoc]

(I'm glad these are easy to move around!)

[narfstar]

The Model Fun is mine. I do not see or feel any Centaur in it

[bchat]

OK, here's my thoughts on why these books belong in "Centaur" and not anywhere else:

When the books were sold by Ultem Publishing, the owners listed in "Funny Picture Stories v3 n1" (the earliest Statement of Ownership I've seen so far) were Centaur Publications, Harle Publications, Raymond J. Kelly and S.J. Fried.  The address for all but Fried, including Harle, was 220 Fifth Ave, New York NY.  Joseph J. Hardie was simply the publisher at this point.

In "Funny Pages v4 n1" (Jan 1940), the Statement of Ownership lists  Centaur Publications, Raymond J. Kelly, S.J. Fried, Joseph J. Hardie and E.L. Angel as the owners.  Again, all but Fried were at the 220 address.  Sometime in 1940 (or even late '39) after that Statement was filed, Centaur moved to 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY.

In "Stars and Stripes Comics 2" (May 1941), there's an ad for  "Comet: Stories of Super Time and Space" which is published by H-K Publications.  H-K has the same address as Comic Corporation of America (215 Fourth Avenue).

"Flying Models: Special Fun Issue" volume 61 number 3 (May 1954) was published by H-K Publications, editorial office at 215 Fourth Ave, New York NY. 

"Model Fun # 4" (May/Spring 1955) was published by Harle Publications, with the editorial office located at 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY (same as the later "Centaur Comics").   As luck would have it, the book includes a Statement of Ownership which lists Harle Publications, Joseph J. Hardie, Raymond J. Kelly and Clare S. Aichele.  All but Clare Aichele have the 215 Fourth Avenue address.

Hardie & Kelly may have stopped publishing comic books in 1942, but they didn't stop publishing altogether.  The duo simply switched gears and got more involved in magazines and other publications, which they produced from at least 1940 until 1960.  To me, the "Flying Models" and "Model Fun" books are a "slight return" to publishing comics, or at least, they're the first hard evidence I've seen that they didn't fully abandon the industry.  I would not doubt there are others, I just haven't found them yet.  "Flying Models" and "Model Fun", are part of the publishing history of Hardie & Kelly, and to a certain extent, Centaur/CCA itself.  I think it would be wrong to just push these books off to the side simply because their contents don't match what's found in Funny Pages, CMO Comics, Detective Picture Stories or Amazing-Man Comics.

kquattro - I understand what you're saying.  It's been pointed-out elsewhere that Timely/Marvel is not the same company as Atlas/Seaboard simply because they have the same owner ... and that's a fair arguement.  The difference I see here is that Hardie & Kelly didn't sell-off the Centaur/CCA books to someone else to continue publishing as both Gaines & Martin Goodman did, nor did they start-up a new company to produce some comics over a decade after CMO Comics or World Famous Heroes (whichever came out last).  And let's be clear, I'm not saying that the Model Fun & Flying Models books are strictly "Centaur Comics", but I strongly feel that that's where they belong on this site since there is a direct link between those two books (possibly others ... time will tell) and everything that Centuar Publications/Comic Corporation of America published.  Anyone looking to do a comprehensive history of the company that published "Centaur Comics" would be missing a piece of the puzzle if they were ignorant of what Hardie & Kelly did beyond the comics they published from 1938 to 1942.

[narfstar]

Pretty good argument. And they would have evolved their next comic endeavor to meet the times.

[kquattro]

And let's be clear, I'm not saying that the Model Fun & Flying Models books are strictly "Centaur Comics", but I strongly feel that that's where they belong on this site since there is a direct link between those two books (possibly others ... time will tell) and everything that Centuar Publications/Comic Corporation of America published.

I understand you're thought process, bchat, and to some extent, I agree--there is a tantalizing link. And I definitely agree if a comprehensive history of Hardie and Kelly's publishing ventures is ever written, then surely these comics should be included. But I'd stop short of putting them under the Centaur banner or labeling them as successors of that company. It's apparent that Hardie and Kelly had an ongoing publishing company and that it produced various types of publications. The fact that they made some attempt at a comic book format more than a decade later doesn't necessarily mean those should be seen as successors to Centaur. Other publishers have also wandered in and out of comic book publishing, Archer St. John was one I can name right off. He once had a comic (it started as a comic/magazine hybrid) and company named FLYING CADET. Several years after its demise he again reentered comic book publishing. While FLYING CADET was a direct antecedent to St. John Publishing, I wouldn't list it under that company and neither does anyone else. It was a separate publishing venture.

The problem I see is that invariably someone is going to misconstrue your cautious tethering of the two publishing ventures and they will state flatly that MODEL FUN and FLYING MODELS are Centaur comics. If this site places the two comics under the Centaur category it will give credence to what is yet an unproven theory.

I hope you will keep us apprised as to your research into these comics, bchat. If you can uncover more information regarding them or other possible comic ventures by Hardie and Kelly, I'd love to read it. Good luck and congratulations on what you've found out so far.

--Ken Q

[bchat]

I understand you're thought process, bchat, and to some extent, I agree--there is a tantalizing link. And I definitely agree if a comprehensive history of Hardie and Kelly's publishing ventures is ever written, then surely these comics should be included. But I'd stop short of putting them under the Centaur banner or labeling them as successors of that company. It's apparent that Hardie and Kelly had an ongoing publishing company and that it produced various types of publications. The fact that they made some attempt at a comic book format more than a decade later doesn't necessarily mean those should be seen as successors to Centaur. Other publishers have also wandered in and out of comic book publishing, Archer St. John was one I can name right off. He once had a comic (it started as a comic/magazine hybrid) and company named FLYING CADET. Several years after its demise he again reentered comic book publishing. While FLYING CADET was a direct antecedent to St. John Publishing, I wouldn't list it under that company and neither does anyone else. It was a separate publishing venture.

To me, that's the difference in this situation (Hardie & Kelly).  It's NOT a seperate publishing venture, it's comic books coming from the exact same company.  I see no good reason to keep the two books in question in the "Small Press" category based solely on a 12 year gap in the company (a company that continued publishing throughout that time period) producing comics when there is a better place for them to be.

The problem I see is that invariably someone is going to misconstrue your cautious tethering of the two publishing ventures and they will state flatly that MODEL FUN and FLYING MODELS are Centaur comics. If this site places the two comics under the Centaur category it will give credence to what is yet an unproven theory.

But it's a solid relationship between the books.  I don't agree (obviously) that they should be kept seperate.

I hope you will keep us apprised as to your research into these comics, bchat. If you can uncover more information regarding them or other possible comic ventures by Hardie and Kelly, I'd love to read it. Good luck and congratulations on what you've found out so far.
--Ken Q

The history of "Centaur Comics", and by extension what Hardie & Kelly published during and after that period of time, is of great interest to me (no, I can't really explain why).  When I saw "Flying Models" and "Model Fun" in the Small Press section, I was like "Awesome!", as I had just recently discovered that Hardie & Kelly published "Flying Models" magazine.  I wasn't thrilled about what was inside those books, because I am, first and foremost, a superhero fan, and care very little about the hobby of model planes.  Still, it was a cool discovery to see that the duo did publish more comics beyond what's traditionally attributed to them.  That's part of the reason I feel so strongly about the books being in the "Centaur" section, since I learned about the magazines first and then discovered the comics afterwards ... it was like I just ran around in a circle to get back to where I started.  Had the books been in what I personally consider "the proper category" earlier, I would have had something to work with when trying to answer the question "what else did they do after 1942?"  I feel strongly that it's a benefit to other people in the future that are looking to do the same "research" I currently am doing to have everything they would want to look at in one area.

Certainly, as I learn more about what Hardie & Kelly published, I'ld be more than happy to share that information with whoever cares to read about it.  It's a "pet project", to be sure, but it's something I have a strong interest in doing.  I think all these little "pieces of the puzzle" helps to shed light on the subject.  The company that published "Centaur Comics" didn't die and go away, they "went where the money was" but were not against publishing what I can only assume at the moment was the occasional comic book.

... they would have evolved their next comic endeavor to meet the times.

My thoughts exactly, although had they continued producing comics beyond 1942, I seriously doubt that comics about model planes would have been the end result.  On the other hand, you never know, since the pair did seem interested in models & cars, based on what I've learned about the magazines they publlished.

[Yoc]

Perhaps a detailed description for each magazine should be written of where it fits in the history of Centaur.

Bchat - could you write something for each.  Nothing huge - just a few sentences so everyone is clear on these.
I think that would cover Ken's worries while being able to leave them in that category.

Sound good?

Just post them here if you would and I'll add them to the titles.
-Yoc

[narfstar]

When the site is fully functional maybe we could change it to Centaur/Harle to indicate the continued publication

[kquattro]

To me, that's the difference in this situation (Hardie & Kelly).  It's NOT a seperate publishing venture, it's comic books coming from the exact same company.  I see no good reason to keep the two books in question in the "Small Press" category based solely on a 12 year gap in the company (a company that continued publishing throughout that time period) producing comics when there is a better place for them to be.

I know you are striving mightily to make this connection, bchat, but there is little evidence to support what you are trying to do.

You assume that the Hardie and Kelly publishing company was one continuous, uninterrupted business. Unless you haven't yet revealed some details, then you have no idea if that is true. How do you know that H & K didn't leave the business at some point and reenter again? Max Gaines (whose example you readily discounted) sold MOST of the All-American company to DC, but he retained such properties as Fat and Slat and the Picture Stories comics that were published both by All-American and EC. He left the field of comics for approximately 6 weeks--a virtually continuous history of publishing comics from All-American through EC all at the same address. No one considers them the same company, yet you are attempting to lump MODEL FUN and FLYING MODELS with Centaur with far little knowledge of their publishing history. At best, these comics are a footnote to the Centaur story unless you can prove something more.

I applaud your enthusiasm and what you've determined so far, bchat. But I hope you put what you've learned in the proper perspective.

To Yoc: You can put MODEL FUN and FLYING MODELS under any category you choose--it's your site. But by doing so, you potentially contribute to further mangling the true history of comics. The Internet is fertile ground for rumors and half-truths and invariably, what appears here will be repeated elsewhere.

When it comes to comic history, in the past, often assumptions were made and through repetition, taken as fact. Consequently, it has taken years to unravel fact from fiction. It's an ongoing process and the work of such dedicated historians as Jim V, Mike Feldman, Doc V, Jim Amash and others that have brought some clarity to this murky past. Recently, here on this board we discussed whether Rural Home was connected to Croydon and the question was asked as to how this connection was ever made. Most likely it was made by someone making an assumption based upon scant evidence, leaving us with a confused history that is still being sorted out.

Stating what is known--letting the facts speak for themselves--is how the truth will be revealed. Making assumptions based upon a few facts makes finding the truth that much harder.

--Ken Q

[Yoc]

Ok Ok, wow....
I've moved them back into Small Press and will add a note that there is a strong likelyhood that a connection to Centaur likely exists but is not 100% nailed down.
bchat - as Ken mentions our lumping it in with Centaur might be propagated as a 'fact' down the road that just might be wrong.  I'd like to avoid the possibility for now.

-Yoc

[kquattro]

Ok Ok, wow....
I've moved them back into Small Press and will add a note that there is a strong likelyhood that a connection to Centaur likely exists but is not 100% nailed down.

To Yoc and bchat: I apologize. My previous post comes across as strident and scolding and it wasn't intended to be. There is no excuse for that and I hope I didn't make either of you angry. You are good guys, this is a great list and this site is a wonderful resource.

I spend an insane amount of time researching various aspects of comic book history. Too often I've wandered down long roads that ended in a cul de sac because the starting point was wrong to begin with. This has made me very careful and my conclusions, measured. Folks like Jim V have set an example for me of how it is better to err on the side of caution rather than jump to a conclusion too rapidly. I've found that to be great advice.

Again, I'm sorry bchat and Yoc if I offended you.

--Ken Q

[JVJ]

Folks like Jim V have set an example for me of how it is better to err on the side of caution rather than jump to a conclusion too rapidly. I've found that to be great advice.

The ONE thing I know for certain is just how much I DON'T know. Hames Ware and I come up with hundreds of theories and notions and ideas and speculations every year about publishers and artist and shops. Very few of them will EVER be verified, simply because there's scant source material or primary sources still alive. So, it's great to talk about these things, but it's best to think twice or three times before recording the theories from your observations as fact. I once speculated that a particular Harvey story from 1960 was done by Howard Nostrand. Big QUESTION MARK in the published data - lots of qualifications and doubt in my mind, but someone asked me to take my best guess, so I did. Only guess what disappeared when that published data was transferred to the GCD? Right, the ?. And 25 years later I know that my guess was wrong and I'll NEVER be able to retract it. Think before you insist of recording the extrapolations from your observations.

DO record those observations! The information about H&K provided here is good, solid research, and should definitely be kept with the H&K books. But what happens if we take the discussion out of publishing.

What if Hardie and Kelly had a Macdonald's franchise in 1942 (Centaur, CCA) and then gave it up, tore down the building and put up a Burger King (H&K) on the same lot in 1946? We'd have a continuity of ownership AND address, but it wouldn't make Burger King into Macdonalds, or vice versa. So, YES, there is a continuation of an H&K publishing business at that address. IF Centaur or CCA was published by H&K Publishing, then we would have a continuation of Centaur. Since I don't know of any such indicia listing, I tend to think the evidence shows that Harlie and Kelly folded one company (CCA) and started another (H&K).

If you've got any more data (or if I have missed some), please fill me in. I love these obscure historical connections, bchat, and I love to add to the history of comics. Keep digging and keep sharing.

ps. For the record, JVJ scanners, I now have my Centaur comics back in my possession and available.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Hi Ken,
Don't worry, I know I wasn't offended by any posts here.  I'm just trying to keep everyone happy on the topic and I can see someone will disagree with where they are put no matter what.  So I've decided to error on the side of caution for now.
I certainly applaud bchat on his determined research on the company and I hope he continues to update us on anything he finds.  After a while I need flowcharts on all these things.  It's like a messy family tree.  'Are we cousins or siblings?' 
Jim, thanks for your input.  A nicer group of guys can't be found.

-Yoc

[bchat]

Glad the site's working again.  The internet is so boring without this place.

Regarding H-K & Harle Publications:  It's not a new business, and that' where I'm failing to understand why there is such a strong desire to keep the books seperate.  It's one single entity that produced comics, albeit not on a regular, continuous basis ... but why should the number of years between producing comics be such an issue?  That's really what I'm not getting here, and the examples given (All-American/EC Comics, McDonalds/Burger King, etc) simply don't apply because they're not the same situation.  We're not talking about two people who occasionally did business together or constantly started-up new companies, but two partners who worked together for at least 20 years, using the same "tricks of the trade" when it came to publishing names, one of which (Harle) was listed as part of the ownership group of Centaur Publications.   To me, what we have here is basically the same situation as Martin Goodman/Timely/Atlas/Marvel Comics, except that Goodman was constantly producing comics while Hardie & Kelly were more focused on magazines.

If part of the purpose of this site is to help anyone investigate the history of comics & the companies involved in publishing those comics, then why would these two books be placed anywhere else?  It should be obvious by now that I'm interested in the "Big Picture" of the companies & people involved in the books commonly (and perhaps misleadingly) referred to as "Centaur Comics", but I basically tripped over the Flying Models & Model Fun comics while searching for something totally unrelated (my coloring book project).  I used search engines looking for info on Flying Models and was never led here.  I didn't know before-hand that those titles existed as comics, I only knew of "Flying Models" as being a magazine, so I was never going to check the "Small Press" section to find something I didn't know was there.

At the end of the day, though, this isn't my site so it's not my decision.  I don't really know what other information I could provide to change anyone's mind on the situation.  If the fact that H&K were producing magazines & puzzle books from at least 1940 to 1960 isn't going to do it, I'm not sure what will.  On my computer, the books are located in the same folder as the rest of the comics H&K produced, and there's no good reason for them to be anywhere else.

[narfstar]

bchat's argument makes the most sense to me. Just because the "normal" comic fan base does not recognize the parent company as having existed continously does not make it any less so

[Yoc]

*sigh*
You know, in a perfect world we admins would be able to go into the site and ADD a new category within Centaur called 'H&K' and post bchats observations.  Give them a separate folder but explain the possible, perhaps likely, connection to Centaur.
BUT... we can't get into the site to change or add new categories to GAC.

So for now, I think leave them as is with a plan to one day give them a folder of their own in Centaur.
Sound like a compromise?

[JVJ]

Glad the site's working again.  The internet is so boring without this place.

Regarding H-K & Harle Publications:  It's not a new business,

Can you explain how you KNOW that it's not a new business, bchat? It's not "Centaur Comics" and it's not "Comic Corporation of America" and it's not "Comic Magazine Company". If you've got a case that extends beyond the confluence of the address and some of the owners, then make that case. Just saying that it's the same people doesn't convince me. Nor does the Martin Goodman argument. Goodman's multiple companies existed simultaneously and were used to minimize the size of each "company". From what I can tell, there's a definite SEQUENCE with the various Harle companies: Comic Magazine Company was followed by Centaur Comics was followed by Comic Corporation of America - and the owners varied slightly with each. The owners varied in Goodman's companies, too, but it's obvious that it was a shell game Goodman was playing - wife, sons, cousins, whatever, were shoehorned into "ownership" positions and statements just to fill out the incorporation forms. The mix Harle, Hardie, Kelly and the various Angels change slightly over the various corporations (like Goodman, I agree), but they change over TIME and with new company names.

and that' where I'm failing to understand why there is such a strong desire to keep the books seperate.  It's one single entity that produced comics, albeit not on a regular, continuous basis ... but why should the number of years between producing comics be such an issue? 

You're right, the number of years doesn't mean much of anything, bchat. It's the "one single entity" that poses questions. What other facts do you have that indicate that H&K was a continuation of Comics Corporation of America? That's what we need to ascertain if we're going to include these books with Centaur.

as an aside: To my mind, CCA is NOT Centaur: it's a new company formed to continue publishing Centaur books. Same characters, one of the same titles, same artists and some of the same owners, different addresses, but my chances of rewriting comics history to separate the two are slim and none.

That's really what I'm not getting here, and the examples given (All-American/EC Comics, McDonalds/Burger King, etc) simply don't apply because they're not the same situation.  We're not talking about two people who occasionally did business together or constantly started-up new companies,

This is where I think your argument fails. How do you KNOW they weren't constantly starting up new companies? Seems to me, every time they changed the name of the company, they WERE starting up a new one - by DEFINITION. If they incorporated, they were making a new company. And even if the new company published the same thing as the previous company, it doesn't alter the fact that IT'S A DIFFERENT COMPANY. If they had kept the name of the company and changed the output from comic books to train magazines, THEN I would buy into your argument wholesale. Changing the name of the company, reincorporating the new name, changing the output to models and then eventually moving it back to comic books is a scenario that pretty much defines a lack of connection between the first company's comics and the second company's comics.

but two partners who worked together for at least 20 years, using the same "tricks of the trade" when it came to publishing names, one of which (Harle) was listed as part of the ownership group of Centaur Publications.   To me, what we have here is basically the same situation as Martin Goodman/Timely/Atlas/Marvel Comics, except that Goodman was constantly producing comics while Hardie & Kelly were more focused on magazines.

Goodman started up a LOT of companies and published comics, pulps, men's magazines, MAD imitations and whatever under various banners. When he started making men's magazines, he didn't start a new company, he simply picked one of the ones he already had and released it under that company's name. Same with Snafu and his other comic magazines - he didn't create a new "brand" (I call them sub-publishers). Goodman's subpublishers, as I said before, existed continuously and simultaneously and were allocated new titles as Goodman needed them. This is substantially different from folding, say, Red Circle Publications, and then starting up Chipiden Publications for a new title.

If part of the purpose of this site is to help anyone investigate the history of comics & the companies involved in publishing those comics, then why would these two books be placed anywhere else? 

If I didn't agree with you on this purpose, bchat, I simply wouldn't be here. Folks like you are what attracted me to the site. You WANT to know and you ASK good questions and come up with new ideas. I can't tell you how interesting that make GACUK for me. And I want to add to what you know, not to discredit your thoughts.

It should be obvious by now that I'm interested in the "Big Picture" of the companies & people involved in the books commonly (and perhaps misleadingly) referred to as "Centaur Comics", but I basically tripped over the Flying Models & Model Fun comics while searching for something totally unrelated (my coloring book project).  I used search engines looking for info on Flying Models and was never led here.  I didn't know before-hand that those titles existed as comics, I only knew of "Flying Models" as being a magazine, so I was never going to check the "Small Press" section to find something I didn't know was there.

You're right, and this site should NEVER be the only source of information. No site should be - it's too restrictive. There is EVERY reason to include Harle, Kelly and Centaur in the comments section of the Flying Models scans so that they should turn up when someone searches for Centaur on the GACUK site. That's what the search engine on the site should do for researchers. And you're to be commended for initially making the connection and for insisting that your data be somehow incorporated into the site. It will probably be more accurate to keep the information in the notes than to move the scans to section that would imply a greater connection than is PROVABLE. You can connection the principals easily enough, but we can't seem to equate the corporations.

At the end of the day, though, this isn't my site so it's not my decision.  I don't really know what other information I could provide to change anyone's mind on the situation.  If the fact that H&K were producing magazines & puzzle books from at least 1940 to 1960 isn't going to do it, I'm not sure what will.  On my computer, the books are located in the same folder as the rest of the comics H&K produced, and there's no good reason for them to be anywhere else.

And there's no reason for you not to put your scans wherever you want them. I don't consider this discussion as being trying to convince anyone of anything. It's about a strict interpretation of the facts in a way that will neither hide any meaningful connections nor imply a greater connection than actually exists. I wage this "war" with Hames all the time. He's creative and imaginative and insightful and intuitive and comes up with some really fascinating theories of how things were. Part of my "job" on the team is to boil down those insights into facts that can be proven without losing sight of the ideas that Hames put forth. BOTH of these aspects are valuable.

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, bchat, just that you haven't yet proven your case. As I said in my first post on this subject, there are LOTS of cases that will NEVER be proven (right or wrong). We just have to live with that, I guess.


(|:{>

[kquattro]

This is where I think your argument fails. How do you KNOW they weren't constantly starting up new companies? Seems to me, every time they changed the name of the company, they WERE starting up a new one - by DEFINITION.

You've hit the nail on the head, Jim. Centaur Comics as an entity died with the last publication under that imprint. It has occurred to me that perhaps Centaur was a separate "division" of a larger publisher, one devoted strictly to comics while the other put out the magazines. But even so, the COMIC company ended when their publication of the comics did. Hardie and Kelly didn't retain the Centaur name for a reason. Unless further research reveals (go, bchat, go!) something different, then I can't see the Harle/H-K comics being anything other than a postscript to the Centaur comics--to use Yoc's phrase, "cousins instead of siblings". It doesn't lessen them historically and kudos again to bchat for uncovering the connection in the first place.

I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, bchat, just that you haven't yet proven your case.

Ibid. There's obviously much more to this story and hopefully bchat or someone else can fill in the blanks. I can't wait!

--Ken Q

[bchat]

Regarding H-K & Harle Publications:  It's not a new business,

Can you explain how you KNOW that it's not a new business, bchat? It's not "Centaur Comics" and it's not "Comic Corporation of America" and it's not "Comic Magazine Company". If you've got a case that extends beyond the confluence of the address and some of the owners, then make that case.

I made no claim that Hardie & Kelly had anything to do with Comics Magazine Company, because they didn't.  "CMC" owned Funny Pages & Funny Picture Stories before they were purchased by Ultem Publications.  "CMC's" affiliation with what's commonly referred to as "Centaur" is, in my mind, a "traditional" one, and is not something I wish to contest or dispute.

Here's all the information I have (magazine & other non-comic info taken from various internet sources).  I've tried hard not to speculate on anything beyond what I have to look at, and I've done my best to draw logical conclusions.  The information regarding the publication of magazines and other periodicals is spotty at best, probably because magazines in general aren't treated in the same way that comics are (people don't collect them or care very little for their publishing history, although there are exceptions such as "Life" or "TV Guide").

January 1939 - Funny Picture Stories v3 n1 "Statement of Ownership":  Owners: Centaur Publications, Harle Publications, Raymond J. Kelly & S.J. Fried.  Based on my interpretation of the wording on a "Statement of Ownership", the "owners" are listed by the company that own the comic in question, followed immediately by the owners of that company.  In this case, it appears to me that Harle (owned by Kelly) owns Centaur Publications, which owns Funny Picture Stories.

January 1940 - Funny Pages v4 n1 "Statement of Ownership":  Owners: Centaur Publications, Raymond J. Kelly, S.J. Fried, Joseph J. Hardie, K.L. Angel.  Harle is dropped from the list of owners?  Why?  How should I know?

Febraury 1941 - The Statement of Ownership for Amazing-Man Comics 20 is incredibly hard to read since it's fiche, but it looks like it might say that the owners are Comic Corporation of America, Joseph Hardie, Raymond Kelly and E.L. Angel.  This open to debate since the Statement is so hard for me to read.

May 1941 - Stars & Stripes Comics 2 - Ads for "Dime Crosswords" and "Comet: Stories of Super Time and Space", both published by H-K Publications, 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY.  That is the same address as Comic Corporation of America which published SNS #2.  Comic Corporation of America (CCA) was the publisher of all of the "Amazing-Man Comics" that I've seen an indicia for.

October 1942 - Smiles # 3 (magazine) - Earliest issue of this title I could find information on. Based on what little I've seen of the covers and the occasional interior shot, my assumption is that "Smiles" was a "comic magazine" with a possible mix of artwork & text.  Not having access to any copies first-hand, an assumption is all I have.

Winter 1945 - Smiles # 13 - Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly: publishers. George Weaver: art director.  This info is from a copy listed for sale online.  Based on the issue number, Smiles was probably published on a quarterly-or-less-frequent schedule.

1945 - Cheers 9 & 10 - published by Rockley Publications inc, the company that also published Motorsport (keep reading).

Summer 1948 - Smiles: A Magazine Gone Mad # 26 - Published by Band Leaders Publishing Company.

1948 - Flying Models is published.  I ran across a Renewal but for the moment can't find additional information to go along with this.

1948 - Flying Models Including Clying Aces is first published (info from Renewals). This title is treated as a seperate magazine by the Copyright Office. "Consult Copyright Office" attatched to the entry. This is the same note all of Marvel's GA books contain.

January 1949 - Smiles # 28

1950 - Motorsport - Published by H-K Publications according to info I gathered from Google.  Earliest year I can find info for this magazine.  There was a period in 1953 where the publisher is listed as "Rockley Publications" but changes back to "H-K Publications" in '54.

October 1951 - Melodyland # 1 - Published by H-K Publications according to info I gathered from Google. - Earliest year I can find info for this magazine.

January 1952 - Melodyland # 2 - Published by H-K Publications according to info I gathered from Google. Only other issue I currently have information for.

November 1952 - Motorsport v3 n11 published by Rockley Publications, Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond J. Kelly: publishers.

May 1954 - Flying Models "Special Fun Issue" volume 61 number3 (whole number 254). "Published monthly by H-K Publications", 215 Fourth Ave, New York NY.   I've seen nothing to indicate that "Flying Models" was a regular comic book title, but then again, I've never had my hands on a copy of "Flying Models", I've only seen pictures on eBay.  Up to the point of seeing the scans on this site, I was under the impression that "FM" was a normal magazine-sized publication.  The "Standard Guide to Golden Age Comics" only lists "Flying Models # 1: Health-Knowledge Publications: 1954".  No clue where they get "Health-Knowledge" from or why they list the issue as "# 1".

1954 - Boat Sport - Info from Copyright Office website suggests that this was published by H-K Publications.  Earliest year I can find info for this magazine.  Oops!  Should have copied that page ... then again, I don't care about boating.  If I recall correctly, I believe Cadence Industries Corporation was filing the Renewals for this book in 1978.

Spring 1955 - Model Fun # 4 - Published by Harle Publications, 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY. Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly, publishers. Walter H. Holze, managing editor. Bob Buragas, editor. George Weaver, art director.
Includes Statement of Ownership: Owners: Harle Publications, Joseph J. Hardie, Raymond J. Kelly, Clare S. Aichele (411 West Main St, Huntington NY).
Apparently a bi-monthly publication, Model Fun (at least this issue) included comic art.   The "Standard Guide to Golden Age Comics" lists issues 2-5 as being published.

October 1955 - Smiles (issue unknown).  Oops again.  Forget where I got this info from.  I think it was an eBay listing that didn't state the issue number.  Nice artwork on the cover, though.

1955 - Flying Models - Published by H-K Publications - Earliest year I can find info.

February 1956 - Last issue of "Smiles" I can find info for. Another magazine entitled "Smiles" was published a significant amount of time later (70s, 80s?... who cares?), but this was a magazine associated with dentistry, not humor.

Fall 1956 - Rock N Roll Jamboree # 1 is published by Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly. The cover features Elvis and is exported to Australia.  I ran across this magazine on a "bookseller" site first, then found something on eBay.  In fact, it's THIS magazine that got the ball rolling for me, as it was the first clear piece of evidence that went beyond the usual, vaguely phrased "Hardie published magazines after comics" that I had typically run across.

1956 - Motorsport v8 n2 - Published by H-K Publications - Last year I can find info for this magazine.

1958 - Boat Sport - Published by H-K Publications. - Last year I can find info for this magazine.

1959 - Flying Models # 300 - Published by Harle Publications - Last year I can find info. "FM" was also published by H-K Publications up to 1958.

February 1960 - Foreign Car Guide: Featuring the Volkswagen v5 n2.  This info is from a "Bookseller" site and included in the listing is "Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly".  I'm assuming that the seller was implying that Hardie & Kelly were the publishers.

Additional Info that has nothing to do with anything ....
1978 - Cadence Industries Corporation was filing the Renewals for Flying Models, Melodyland, Boat Sport and Motorsport.  By the early 80's, the Copyright Claimant becomes "Magazine Management Company, Inc., a subsidiary of Cadence Industries Corporation".  By 1986, the Claimant on the Renewals is "Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation".  Smiles, Cheers and Model Fun have no record of renewals as far as I can tell.

[bchat]

You've hit the nail on the head, Jim. Centaur Comics as an entity died with the last publication under that imprint.

Again, I'm NOT saying that Flying Models & Model Fun are "Centaur Comics" and I wish everybody could get away from that train of thought for a minute (technically speaking, "Centaur Comics" was Centaur Publications & Comic Corporation of America, there was, in reality, no "Centaur Comics" in terms of publishing entities) .  Western Picture Stories shouldn't be viewed as a "Centaur Comic" either, and yet it's in the same publishing category as Amazing-Man Comics and Keen Detective Funnies.  People wouldn't argue against WPS being included with the "Centaur" books, and yet if anyone did, they would probably be met with "that's where they traditionally belong", even though they'ld be talking about different owners, different adresses, different content, different everything in regards to WPS.

... what is it with me hitting "\" instead of "/" today?

[kquattro]

"CMC's" affiliation with what's commonly referred to as "Centaur" is, in my mind, a "traditional" one, and is not something I wish to contest or dispute.

Before I get to the body of your post, let me say: you've done a wonderful job of research here, bchat!

And your above statement is correct. The linking of CMC/Ultem/Centaur is one of those long established "facts" that I was talking about in an earlier post. While in fact they are not the same company, in appearance they seem to be. Titles carried from one publisher to the next and that's why they are linked, but in truth, they are separate companies.

January 1939 - Funny Picture Stories v3 n1 "Statement of Ownership":  Owners: Centaur Publications, Harle Publications, Raymond J. Kelly & S.J. Fried.  Based on my interpretation of the wording on a "Statement of Ownership", the "owners" are listed by the company that own the comic in question, followed immediately by the owners of that company.  In this case, it appears to me that Harle (owned by Kelly) owns Centaur Publications, which owns Funny Picture Stories.

Or that Harle, Kelly and Fried formed a new company known as Centaur. There is some reason (what I don't know) that Harle isn't just named as the publisher. Likely Centaur was a separate entity, with separate business records, from Harle for tax reasons. Centaur could (and did) fold while Harle could (and from your research, apparently did) keep publishing.

January 1940 - Funny Pages v4 n1 "Statement of Ownership":  Owners: Centaur Publications, Raymond J. Kelly, S.J. Fried, Joseph J. Hardie, K.L. Angel.  Harle is dropped from the list of owners?  Why?  How should I know?

Because Centaur is a separate company from Harle. Again, it may seem like nit-picking, but Centaur still seems to be a separate business that the owners of Harle had an interest in.

Febraury 1941 - The Statement of Ownership for Amazing-Man Comics 20 is incredibly hard to read since it's fiche, but it looks like it might say that the owners are Comic Corporation of America, Joseph Hardie, Raymond Kelly and E.L. Angel.  This open to debate since the Statement is so hard for me to read.

Here I'd guess that Centaur underwent a name change to Comic Corporation of America--can't say why--but in any case, Harle still isn't listed as the publisher. CCA is still kept separate from Harle.

May 1941 - Stars & Stripes Comics 2 - Ads for "Dime Crosswords" and "Comet: Stories of Super Time and Space", both published by H-K Publications, 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY.  That is the same address as Comic Corporation of America which published SNS #2.  Comic Corporation of America (CCA) was the publisher of all of the "Amazing-Man Comics" that I've seen an indicia for.

I think you've established that CCA and Harle/H-K are related, bchat. But this still doesn't make Harle/H-K the same company as Centaur/CCA. Advertising in a related publication is to be expected.

October 1942 - Smiles # 3 (magazine)...Not having access to any copies first-hand, an assumption is all I have.

and

Winter 1945 - Smiles # 13 - Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly: publishers. George Weaver: art director.

OK.

1945 - Cheers 9 & 10 - published by Rockley Publications inc, the company that also published Motorsport...etc.

There's no reason for me to address each of your entries separately since all they show is that Hardie and Kelly (presumably) formed different companies to publish various publications. No Centaur/CCA, no comics.

May 1954 - Flying Models "Special Fun Issue" volume 61 number3 (whole number 254). "Published monthly by H-K Publications", 215 Fourth Ave, New York NY...Spring 1955 - Model Fun # 4 - Published by Harle Publications, 215 Fourth Avenue, New York NY. Joseph J. Hardie & Raymond Kelly, publishers. Walter H. Holze, managing editor. Bob Buragas, editor. George Weaver, art director.
Includes Statement of Ownership: Owners: Harle Publications, Joseph J. Hardie, Raymond J. Kelly, Clare S. Aichele (411 West Main St, Huntington NY)

This is the last significant entry if you are trying to establish your comic connection, I believe. You've PROVEN that Hardie, Kelly and Harle were owners of Centaur/CCA. That's it. To me, if anything all your research (and it is a fine bit of detective work!) confirms that the comic company Centaur/CCA ended with the last comic published by that company circa 1942 and Mssrs. Hardie and Kelly (and various partners) went on to other publishing ventures. The fact that at some point later they published comics is interesting, but it doesn't make those later comics Centaur/CCA comics. Related, yes, the same, no.

You've found a connection that to my knowledge no one else has found, bchat. Congratulations, that's great! I've spoken my piece and expressed my reservations about your conclusions, so I'll leave it at that.

--Ken Q

[kquattro]

Again, I'm NOT saying that Flying Models & Model Fun are "Centaur Comics" and I wish everybody could get away from that train of thought for a minute

You posted this as I was making my last post, bchat. The reason why people are following the "FLYING MODELS & MODEL FUN are Centaur comics" train of thought is because YOU are the one who suggested that they be listed under that category. Without that suggestion, there is no disagreement.

--Ken Q