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Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor  (Read 2700 times)

Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2023, 07:28:37 AM »




By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary;



I loved watching the Flintstones reality show as a kid. It had to be real, because they had real people in it. Who could forget the episode when Ann-Margrock sang? Not to mention Gary Granite and Gina Loadabricks. Plus you can't tell me all of Wilma's household appliances weren't real. We're still using the updated versions today.  :D

QQ


I'm glad to know it was photographed film rather than animation.  I HATE blockish, limited animation!  So I couldn't enjoy that show.  But then, I never liked "The Honeymooners", either.  It was too "corny" (not to be confused with "Carney")!   ::)
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2023, 07:57:44 AM »

Quote
  By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary; 

It would be nice to think that was a joke, but it may not be.
It reminded me that I had read that during the years that "Gilligans Island' was on TV, the US coastguard continually got letters asking why they hadn't rescued those poor people!   
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2023, 01:39:12 PM »

Robb; Arthur Conan Doyle figured they’d take tall spikes and plant them at the bottom of a cliff and bait the T Rex into going over the cliff. Doggone, I forgot the world is only 6000 years old. Forgive me for my sins.
‘Panther; No, the guys numbers are usually pretty solid. I’m actually surprised he’s as optimistic as he still is. We were at lunch one day and he told me how the advertising company for Anheuser-Busch reported that Spuds MacKenzie got hundreds (if not thousands) of letters every day. Not the brewery. Not the advertising agency.
The dog.
And the person I was with got a bit irritated and said they thought the dog would have LIKED it if someone read those to him, WHAT WAS OUR PROBLEM???
Q.Q: one lady in the sampling actually had your point of view FOR REAL. They HAD TO be animated because the camera hadn’t been INVENTED yet. Everybody knew that. And yeah, Ann Margrock. Memories are made of this.
’Super; sometimes I go to the Thrift Store and buy a painting, and glue Godzilla into it and then re-donate it. That idea of George Washington and the plesiosaur is really tempting.


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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2023, 11:47:59 PM »

Ann-Margret singing as Ann-Margrock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXCiS2FpmIc

Um, backed by the Wrecking Crew?

Beach Boys & The Flintstones - "Surfin USA" (AKA - "Surfin' Craze")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a1nO-FA21I

Fred and Barney Sing "Yabba Dabba Doo" w/ Hoagy Carmichael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjaNj_TKoy8

Beau Brummelstones - Laugh Laugh (ao Vivo)
Denis Ramos Figueiredo
747 subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKj3fjQ3S4Y

Kingpins - BedRock twitch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJqjMSal-sQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2023, 04:15:26 AM »


Robb;
(1) Arthur Conan Doyle figured they’d take tall spikes and plant them at the bottom of a cliff and bait the T Rex into going over the cliff.


’Super; (2) Sometimes I go to the Thrift Store and buy a painting, and glue Godzilla into it and then re-donate it. That idea of George Washington and the plesiosaur is really tempting. 

(1) That was a trick The very intelligent paleolithic Modern Humans (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) played on Mammoths and other very large prey.  I don't recall ever reading that any previous Hominids, including Neanderthal man ever did that.  I don't think the earliest Hominids even had sharp ended rock weapon edges, like sharpened obsidian spear tips.  I also don't think they had even all wood spears with sharpened tips as far back as 2.5 million years ago.  The technology probably hadn't come as far making sharp stone-tipped spears, even sharpened wooden spears, or tricks like the mass killings of herd animals (Mammoths, mastodons, bison, etc.) by 1 million years ago.  Think of how close the first hominids' technology (about 2.5-3.0 million years ago) was to that of the first Modern Humans of about 100,000 years ago (by recent Human standards of progress over time).  I doubt that hominids had started using fire in a controlled manner as far back as 1 million years ago.  I think current theory has the oldest "reliable" evidence of controlled fire is from Neanderthal and Modern Human caves from between 300,000 and 400,000 years ago.  So Homo Erectus of 1 million years ago was not very likely to have mastered enough control of fire to drive large prey animals (especially dinosaurs (EVEN if they existed then) over long distances and over cliffs.  And could hominids beating sticks on rocks or animal skin drums be loud enough to scare large dinosaurs into a panic that would make them run so fast they would have neither the time nor the awareness to notice a cliff in front of them, before falling over?  And, what manner of spikes could Hominids make a million years ago, given their limited technology?  Don't forget that we Humans of today have the benefit of almost everything Hominids have learned over the last 3 to 3.5 million years, while the Hominids of 1 million years ago had a much, much, much smaller tool box.

’Super; (2) Sometimes I go to the Thrift Store and buy a painting, and glue Godzilla into it and then re-donate it. That idea of George Washington and the plesiosaur is really tempting.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 09:27:01 AM by Robb_K »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2023, 05:50:34 AM »


Ann-Margret singing as Ann-Margrock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXCiS2FpmIc

Um, backed by the Wrecking Crew?

Beach Boys & The Flintstones - "Surfin USA" (AKA - "Surfin' Craze")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a1nO-FA21I

Fred and Barney Sing "Yabba Dabba Doo" w/ Hoagy Carmichael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjaNj_TKoy8

Beau Brummelstones - Laugh Laugh (ao Vivo)
Denis Ramos Figueiredo
747 subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKj3fjQ3S4Y

Kingpins - BedRock twitch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJqjMSal-sQ


Panther, thanks for providing the evidence that it's all true. I never doubted for a minute. And I remember hearing about Gilligan's Island and the Coast Guard too. Not to mention viewers who send in gifts when characters on soap operas are present  :D

Cheers

QQ
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2023, 01:13:41 AM »

Sadly, it seems it's impossible to underestimate the dumbness of the human race. Given the things that people are prepared to believe these days, eg., that America is led by Communist paedophile vampires and that Donald Trump is sent by God to destroy them and liberate the world, it's easy to imagine people believing that The Flintstones or Gilligan's Island were for real. Though I do appreciate the inclusion of the Beau Brummelstones, that's classic US pop right there.

I question the entire concept upon which the Tor series is built, that is, we did some research and it could've been like this although there's already plenty of research to suggest it wasn't. And a little embarrassed at the climbdown in #3 where they have to back pedal to assuage the concerns of the Bible Belt, who ten years later would be burning Beatles records.

That said, the Kubert art is naturally terrific, though I do find Chee Chee (the first pet?) incredibly annoying and  I could've lived without the glossary. And the "humour" strips.

I would've been much happier if they'd just launched the strip without all the claims and explanations, and let it be accepted for what it is.  I don't recall anyone explaining Alley Oop!

Thanks for all your comments and insights, do keep them coming.
All the best
K1ngcat
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2023, 03:28:07 AM »

Hey, Kingcat, you just gave me an idea I never had before; was Alley Oop considered blasphemous? I'm seriously wondering now. I mean, Elizabeth Montgomery used to laugh her head off when they banned the BEWITCHED Christmas episodes in the south. It wouldn't surprise me.
By the way, used to know a jobber for Capitol records. He says that The Ruttles got it absolutely right. The Beatles made a KILLING with their records being burned in the south. Sales went through the roof.  Folks bought them just to burn them. And some naturally decided to LISTEN to them to see what the fuss was about...and some of THOSE became fans. Says it really expanded their base.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2023, 01:56:28 AM »

Tor 3
Everything I stated about "One Million Years Ago" applies to this book as well, except this issue's Apologetics introduction, or statement from the creators is oriented towards readers who are strict interpreters of The Bible who believe that The Earth is only 6,000 years old, while that in Issue #1 is aimed towards readers who believe in current (1953) mainstream scientific theory, that The Earth is much, much, much...... ad infinitum more likely to be many, many millions of years old, and thus for it to be almost less than infinitesimally likely that even primitive Hominids (let alone Modern Humans) lived alongside dinosaurs and primitive reptilian species.

Tor in The World of 1,000,000 Years Ago
Again, Kubert's artwork in this book is excellent, and a joy to behold.  Right at the start is an ironic bit of dialogue, which has Tor speaking to his ancient mammal (perhaps attempt at ancient primate?) friend, who I think looks more like an ancient lemur than monkey.  Tor speaks to him in an old-fashioned form of English speech, ('tis), the contraction of the words "it is" which is still used in Ireland, and several regional and local dialects in Britain, but not used at all in normal, mainstream speech in USA, except in period pieces in film, TV, radio, and printed entertainment and similar media's educational pieces.  Of course, Tor and his family would be speaking a very primitive language much more dependent upon physical gesture sign language, calls, yells, grunts, and one-syllable words, which would bear little resemblance to a modern Human language. 

And, I DO realise that the word balloons contain 1953 Standard TV, Radio and Print American English solely for the convenience of the reader.  Yet, it seems rather silly to use a speech form which only dropped out of normal daily speech in British North America a few generations before, to represent the speech of ancient Humans a million years before, when how they communicated with each other is most likely to only loosely termed "a language", if at all.

This reminds me of the weird (and I think silly) German film and TV technique used in dubbing American stories soundtracks, with the speakers speaking their lines using Bavarian Dialect instead of standard Hochdeutsch, to represent the American English dialect in the US antebellum (Old) South.  Of course, Bavaria, Schwabia, and Baden (Southern German states) are, especially the rural folk who form the main bulk of speakers of Bayrish Dialect, are negatively stereotyped as being simple, unsophisticated (hickey) and less educated than their sophisticated northern (urban) counterparts (unfairly, as there are plenty of rural northerners - but the creators of media are generally all well-educated).

And, of course, it is silly for Tor to be using "Old Fashioned" speech, with his pet, as our dogs (or other intelligent pets) would not likely understand words we haven't used with them, before.  To me, these are humourous jokes, but they hurt the reader's enjoyment of reading the story MORE than the amusement of the joke adds to their pleasure, because it makes the reader stop and think, and out of the flow of the story.

Tor's encounter with the Plesiosaur and the giant squidlike animal are excellently drawn.  And the colouring of those scenes is wonderful.  His battle with the clean shaven (hairless) tribe on the forbidden Isle of Fire is really good action.  That made me stop and wonder if their tribe had suffered from a severe fever that made them lose all their body hair, or they found some sharp flakes of obsidian which they used to scrape their hair off so cleanly on their skin's surface (and they must do it every day.  Hard to believe a tribe would do that that long ago, when they had to keep moving to find new (unpicked) vegetable and fruit gathering areas, and in between running from and hiding from dangerous predators.

Tor finds other "Modern Humans" who are enslaved captives of "The Fire People".  Tor brings new courage to the enslaved people.  When they are captured and taken to the caldera of the volcano to be sacrificed, the most beautiful young woman throws herself in, rather than letting a Fire Man do it, and Tor climbs down and fights a serpentlike animal and rescues her, and leads her, and a few of The Human survivors of the continuing volcano explosion to his raft, and takes them back to the mainland and freedom.

A well-drawn and entertaining story.

Snow Trap - Text Story
This story involved a valley with a tribe of farmers who lived of of fruit and vegetable farming, rather than hunting and gathering.  Current mainstream accepted scientific theory is that farming and domesticating animals, including the wolf (the first), occurred much, much,much closer to our own times than to one million years ago (domestication of the wolf- and change into dogs started roughly 40,000 years ago, and first domestication and farming of grains (rather than just harvesting wild forms) at about 12 to 13,000 years ago.
The theories in 1953 were not appreciably different from today's as they pertain to the relative time distance from today and 1 million years before.  The predatory tribe, who captured slaves, used flint knives.  Although that might have been possible, wrapping the oddly-shaped flecked stone to a wooden handle, I am sure that Kubert, in a drawn story, would have made it appear as a streamlined weapon, much too modern for that long ago.  But being a text story, he gets a pass on this one.  But, overall, I'm sure that he was writing and drawing to the taste of pre-teen American boys, just as most foreign cuisine restaurants in USA, Canada, and most other "Western Culture" nations, cater to local tastes in cuisine, and modify their traditional dishes into watered down or severely changed versions.

Tor Story 2 -  (Valley of The Amazons)
A typical theme in Fantasy genre action series.  Not unexpectedly, Tor defeats a sabertooth cat, bringing together the women's tribe with the other local tribe, and stopping Human sacrifice.

Pteranodon - Educational Page
The information includes the statement that this reptile lived from 155 to 120 million years ago.  Yet a Pteranodon was shown together with Tor in a splash panel in Issue #1, where Kubert and Maurer stated that all these animals COULD have survived until the time of Humans.  I think that strategy is detrimental to selling these books.  IF they wanted to give the boys what they think they want, why not couch their strategy and plan in THIS way in their introduction to the series:  "This series is based on considering what life would have been like if Humans and some Jurassic animals had lived during the Cretaceous Period (or flipping the position of the time period chosen).

Danny Dreams
Uncle Jim needs to learn more about Islanders and Native North Americans.  He should have said that "they depend upon fish as their main source of protein and some vitamins."  And as far as for Inuits, most of them depend a lot more on eating meat of seals than fish, (and everyone knows that seals are not fish.).  And in older times, they also hunted caribou and musk oxen.

An inventive story.  It's a good plot, having Danny save the old man, seeing that what he is weaving can be used as a fish net.  I'm not thrilled with a marine reptile from The Mesozoic Age being used, when a shark from about 1 million years ago would have sufficed.  But it was an interesting episode, that stands on its own and provides lots of suspense and a trigger to make the reader want to read the next issue of "Tor", which I will do.  Again, they tell the reader that the animal actually is thought by most scientists to have died out 66 million years ago.  But they claimed in their introduction, that it "COULD have" been alive 1 million years ago. 

Dr. Wertham probably used such misinformation as ammunition to have this type of comic book removed from the shelves of newsstands and stores; whereas, if the creators' introduction just stated that: "This book was written to explore the possibilities of what life would have been like if Humans lived side by side with the animals of The Jurassic, Cretaceous, and Mesozoic Periods.", nobody would have a problem allowing a book to have a fantasy story, and no one could accuse the publishers of publishing information that could have them believing "false facts" and hurting their education.

All in all, this seems a bit better than Issue #1.  I'd like to see the 3-D issue, #2  (which goes by a 3-D title rather than "Tor".  But, I doubt that CB+ has it, or a footnote about it would have been included with the information on this series.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 02:21:14 AM by Robb_K »
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2023, 03:29:18 AM »


One Million Years Ago No. 1


Wizard of Ugghh

I know they say this is silly, but I still thought it was a bit of a stretch to have a caveman wizard wearing one of those dickey shirtfronts. Though no different I suppose to the way the Flintstones were portrayed. I got a bit confused though, because I was thinking the wizard was a charlatan doing tricks, but I couldn’t work out some of them. Not so keen about the sleezy old guy pashing the two young beauties, but this was well before ‘Me too’ and would have fit slapstick humour back then. Too bad the girls didn’t slap him.

The punchline at the end wasn’t funny, but I suppose it was good to have a lighter piece in there.

Cheers
QQ 


Is "pashing" a slang term used only by the younger generations in Australia?  I haven't heard it in USA, Canada or The British Isles.  But, I haven't spent much time in The UK since 2009, and since about 2000, when i have been there, I've mainly been around people above 30-35 years old, and most of them over 50.  I guessed what it means from the context.  I can't believe its been adopted into The Oxford Dictionary as a "proper" word, as of yet.  But, I suppose it probably will be eventually.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2023, 03:49:23 AM »

Tor #3

Isle of Fire!
Amazing how that snake could survive in the volcano crater. How many survivors fit on that raft made for one person? Otherwise fun story.

Snow Trap
Okay.

Authors insert
Well... that's an interesting piece. Almost an apology for not mentioning God while still clinging to a scientific explanation of a story with cavemen and dinosaurs living together (which is not scientific.)

Black Valley
A little simplistic, but okay.

Danny Dreams
Alex Toth's drawing of Joe Kubert doesn't look as good as Joe's drawing of Joe. I remember reading this when DC reprinted Tor in the '70s and that cliffhanger has stuck with me the whole time since I never saw the next chapter.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2023, 03:51:43 AM »

Quote
Is "pashing" a slang term used only by the younger generations in Australia?   


A traditional slang term. Common in mine and QQ's generations.
The younger generation? Like the younger generation everywhere in the world right now, they speak internet-derived language.   
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2023, 04:02:04 AM »


All in all, this seems a bit better than Issue #1.  I'd like to see the #-D issue, #2  (which goes by a 3-D title rather than "Tor".  But, I doubt that CB+ has it, or a footnote about it would have been included with the information on this series.

Here it is mixed with the 3-D books https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19161

And the B&W version for reading without 3-D glasses https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19171
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2023, 04:03:50 AM »

Posted too soon. There is a second issue of Tor in 3-D https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19164
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2023, 04:27:32 AM »


Posted too soon. There is a second issue of Tor in 3-D https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19164

Thanks for the link!

Kubert's art in the 3-D Issue #2 is even more fantastic than in any of the 4 non-3-D Tor issues.  I recommend it highly.  Even after seeing 2 other issues of Tor in colour, the black and white version issue #2 was a gigantic surprise.  It is some of the best comic book art I've ever seen.  He put his best effort into that 3-D issue.  I recommend that ALL of you take a look at it.  That's something that shouldn't be missed.  And this statement is coming from someone who doesn't give a farthing about Tor's genre of comics.

I've now read all of The Tor issues #1-5, and I've found out that the series ended with poor Danny Dreams stuck back in the past, 40,000 years ago, but in a land with animals from before the Cretaceous mass extinction.  Too bad.  He seems to be a decent sort, unworthy of such a horrible fate.  He is like The American "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".  He uses his knowledge of 20th Century science to get himself out of scrapes.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 05:11:42 AM by Robb_K »
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2023, 05:15:30 AM »

"Pash" was also 1920's American slang among the flapper set. Here it was mainly an adjective, like "that's pash stuff" meaning "that's (sexually) exciting."
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2023, 01:48:09 AM »

One Million Years Ago

Which is about the last time I read this book. To begin with I'll say that the "is it scientific?" debate doesn't interest me. The opening page with its assertions of careful research and scientific fact is Kubert and Maurer's biggest mistake. I don't know why they painted themselves into that corner. Did they feel guilty about putting out a cave man comic? Were they afraid readers would compare them to the 1940 movie One Million B.C.? If they'd just started the story on page 2 they wouldn't have had to explain anything. Cave men and dinosaurs together? Why not? This is a comic book!

The art's the star. I think Tor was some of Kubert's finest work. It was a deeply personal project and you can tell he poured himself into it. He also experimented with storytelling techniques. The silent face-off on our page 9 and the page 11 sequence of the dino caught in an avalanche are old hat now, but such things were rare in 1950s comics. And the pinups--wouldn't the original of that Tyrannosaurus page look great on your wall?

The story is remarkably brutal. We don't usually expect the hero, caveman or not, to beat somebody to death. The larger story is interesting, but Kubert's clumsy attempts at moral education (especially his interruption at the bottom of page 12) are annoying.

The Wizard of Ugghh is beyond annoying. I found him almost unreadable. The jokes are weak and it's never clear why the wizard is so determined to con his assistant Klukk into believing his boss has magical powers. The wizard hires kids to fake monsters and plant fish. He engineers the box full of cats and dogs he releases on page 19. Why expend all this effort to impress Klukk? It also doesn't make sense that when the boys he'd hired use a different monster costume to attack him, the wizard can't tell it's a fake. Finally, the issue of magic. To this point we've been told the wizard's a fraud. Yet on page 20 he's able to hypnotize Klukk into seeing monsters. Then on page 22 he uses magic to make the monster spit him out and kills the creature with a magic card.  The story is poorly thought out and Maurer's art is unclear at several important points. Back to the Stooges, Norm!

Since we're on the subject of "annoying," I'll finish by saying that Chee-Chee, that annoying little @$%^@!!, practically sank the entire project. Maybe Kubert thought he (it?) would soften the grim drama, or maybe that Chee-Chee would appeal to younger readers. On the other hand Kubert may have had a thing for obnoxious little sidekick critters--a similar beast appears in the pearl-diver story he did for EC. And there was Crimebuster's stupid monkey over at Lev Gleason, where Kubert and Maurer both worked. In any case I would have applauded Klar if he'd strangled the little wretch.

Oops--I see I forgot Danny Dreams. Nice to look at, but neither the story nor the concept grab me. Isn't that valley of doughnut-shaped rocks just a wee bit too convenient?
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2023, 08:27:16 AM »



One Million Years Ago No. 1

Wizard of Ugghh

I know they say this is silly, but I still thought it was a bit of a stretch to have a caveman wizard wearing one of those dickey shirtfronts. Though no different I suppose to the way the Flintstones were portrayed. I got a bit confused though, because I was thinking the wizard was a charlatan doing tricks, but I couldn’t work out some of them. Not so keen about the sleezy old guy pashing the two young beauties, but this was well before ‘Me too’ and would have fit slapstick humour back then. Too bad the girls didn’t slap him.

The punchline at the end wasn’t funny, but I suppose it was good to have a lighter piece in there.

Cheers
QQ 


Is "pashing" a slang term used only by the younger generations in Australia?  I haven't heard it in USA, Canada or The British Isles.  But, I haven't spent much time in The UK since 2009, and since about 2000, when i have been there, I've mainly been around people above 30-35 years old, and most of them over 50.  I guessed what it means from the context.  I can't believe its been adopted into The Oxford Dictionary as a "proper" word, as of yet.  But, I suppose it probably will be eventually.


Sorry Robb, it's probably more from my era. I'm not sure what the popular terms are now. Colloquial Australian term for passionate kissing and cuddling. I guess it comes from the shortened form of passion. Good if you're 'having a pash' with someone you like, but not if someone is trying to pash you and you don't like them. In high school, having a pash would have been a badge of honour in some groups. Fortunately (or unfortunately?), I would have been in the music room playing my guitar with the other nerds  :D

Cheers

QQ
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bowers

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2023, 10:45:28 PM »

 Yes, indeed, the caveman vs. dinosaur myth is well-embedded into our entertainment culture! Nonsense? Of course! But it makes a damn fine story and entertained millions of us. Not to mention making millionaires out of  some authors, such as Burroughs. Let's not forget the windfall to studios, both film and television. Why shouldn't the comic publishers jump on the bandwagon?
I still have some of my favorites. D.C.'s Star-Spangled-War-Stories ran with the concept and got my dime every month in 1960! To be sure, the dinos were transported, awakened, etc. to more modern times but what the hell? Most of us at that time didn't buy comics for literary content- we wanted action!  And let us not forget the movies and TV. My guilty pleasure was "Primeval!"
I would be interested to know where and when the aforementioned poll was taken, and who was polled. I admit to being a bit skeptical of those results. Cheers, bowers
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2023, 12:29:40 AM »


One Million Years Ago

Which is about the last time I read this book. To begin with I'll say that the "is it scientific?" debate doesn't interest me. The opening page with its assertions of careful research and scientific fact is Kubert and Maurer's biggest mistake. I don't know why they painted themselves into that corner. Did they feel guilty about putting out a cave man comic? Were they afraid readers would compare them to the 1940 movie One Million B.C.? If they'd just started the story on page 2 they wouldn't have had to explain anything. Cave men and dinosaurs together? Why not? This is a comic book!

The art's the star. I think Tor was some of Kubert's finest work. It was a deeply personal project and you can tell he poured himself into it. He also experimented with storytelling techniques. The silent face-off on our page 9 and the page 11 sequence of the dino caught in an avalanche are old hat now, but such things were rare in 1950s comics. And the pinups--wouldn't the original of that Tyrannosaurus page look great on your wall?

The story is remarkably brutal. We don't usually expect the hero, caveman or not, to beat somebody to death. The larger story is interesting, but Kubert's clumsy attempts at moral education (especially his interruption at the bottom of page 12) are annoying.

The Wizard of Ugghh is beyond annoying. I found him almost unreadable. The jokes are weak and it's never clear why the wizard is so determined to con his assistant Klukk into believing his boss has magical powers. The wizard hires kids to fake monsters and plant fish. He engineers the box full of cats and dogs he releases on page 19. Why expend all this effort to impress Klukk? It also doesn't make sense that when the boys he'd hired use a different monster costume to attack him, the wizard can't tell it's a fake. Finally, the issue of magic. To this point we've been told the wizard's a fraud. Yet on page 20 he's able to hypnotize Klukk into seeing monsters. Then on page 22 he uses magic to make the monster spit him out and kills the creature with a magic card.  The story is poorly thought out and Maurer's art is unclear at several important points. Back to the Stooges, Norm!

Since we're on the subject of "annoying," I'll finish by saying that Chee-Chee, that annoying little @$%^@!!, practically sank the entire project. Maybe Kubert thought he (it?) would soften the grim drama, or maybe that Chee-Chee would appeal to younger readers. On the other hand Kubert may have had a thing for obnoxious little sidekick critters--a similar beast appears in the pearl-diver story he did for EC. And there was Crimebuster's stupid monkey over at Lev Gleason, where Kubert and Maurer both worked. In any case I would have applauded Klar if he'd strangled the little wretch.

Oops--I see I forgot Danny Dreams. Nice to look at, but neither the story nor the concept grab me. Isn't that valley of doughnut-shaped rocks just a wee bit too convenient?


One Million per cent behind you, crash.  ;)  They shot themselves in the foot with the whole "scientific" thing.
And the Wizard.
And Chee Chee.
The art's terrific though.  :)
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2023, 01:09:39 AM »


Posted too soon. There is a second issue of Tor in 3-D https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19164


Thanks for that SS, I agree wholeheartedly with Robb when he sings the praises of Kubert's art on #2, even in b/w it's stunning.
Glad you pointed this one out!  :D
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2023, 01:04:35 AM »


Yes, indeed, the caveman vs. dinosaur myth is well-embedded into our entertainment culture! Nonsense? Of course! But it makes a damn fine story and entertained millions of us. Not to mention making millionaires out of  some authors, such as Burroughs. Let's not forget the windfall to studios, both film and television. Why shouldn't the comic publishers jump on the bandwagon?
I still have some of my favorites. D.C.'s Star-Spangled-War-Stories ran with the concept and got my dime every month in 1960! To be sure, the dinos were transported, awakened, etc. to more modern times but what the hell? Most of us at that time didn't buy comics for literary content- we wanted action!  And let us not forget the movies and TV. My guilty pleasure was "Primeval!"
I would be interested to know where and when the aforementioned poll was taken, and who was polled. I admit to being a bit skeptical of those results. Cheers, bowers


bowers, I had to search The War That Time Forgot to find out what got  your dime every month! In my time the UK sci-fi mag 2000AD ran a strip called Flesh where the Trans Time Corporation sent cowboys back in time to catch dinosaurs which could be processed as food for meat-starved consumers in the future. I guess kids will read just about anything with dinos in it!  ;D
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2023, 05:04:37 AM »

You're welcome Robb & Kingcat.  :)


I guess kids will read just about anything with dinos in it!  ;D

Children's book author Sandra Boynton on Twitter posted "An editor told me pointedly how popular dinosaur books are, and also how popular truck books are. In reply, I jokingly suggested this title. And then I thought: WAIT! I'D BUY THAT! So now I'm on it." The book title is Dinosaurs in Trucks Because Hey Why Not? It'll be her next book.

Months ago I read somewhere on the web an article where Syd Hoff claimed credit for launching dinosaurs in books with Danny the Dinosaur, but that came out in 1958 and this comic preceded it by 5 years. Sadly I couldn't find his quote online.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2023, 05:25:55 AM »

One Million Years Ago #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19163

I'm not going to enter into the dialogue about Dinosaurs and Culture or the truth and reality of the time periods in my reviews of the books. I have enjoyed all that, but I want to just look at the work. From a reader's perspective?
Cover.
It seems to me that the fact that 1,000000 is highlighted twice on the cover is because that magic number is seen as a selling point and an attention-grabber. A publisher's device.
Reminds of the highly popular EVENT series, DC One Million, instigated by Grant Morrison.
The Intro page by St. John probably reflects that it was seen at the time as a New Genre - although it clearly wasn't.

In panel one we see a statue of what appears to be a Caveman in battle with a Pre-historic Tiger. Wonder if Joe actually had one of those, and if so, where it came from?
Joe Kubert
It was always clear to me that Joe wasn't interested in drawing Superheroes. He did very little of that. In the early Silver Age he did most of his work with Kanigher on the War books. It was probably because of Joe's work that DC's War books kept going after nearly every other publisher had quit publishing them.
I was never a fan of Sgt Rock but I consider ENEMY ACE the highlight of Joe's career.
Later when DC temporary acquired the rights to ER Burroughs universe, he got to draw Tarzan.
Seems to have been a dream of many Comic Book Artists . 
Clearly realistic subjects were what Joe was happiest drawing, even Cavemen, Jungles and Dinosaur.
I've live in a climate where tropical rainforests still existed and in the far west of NSW I have stood on what was a factory for making flint blades. (Just looking at the weapon Tor holds in his hand in the first panel of the story.) I could go off on a tangent about accuracy, but Nah!
Moving on;-
'Man is an insignificant figure, inspiring little respect and no terror'.
This is to emphasize Tor's heroics, but I can in no wise agree.
Evidence, I think, shows that in every era man and animals co-existed, animals had good reason to fear man.
In relatively modern times, 'Inuits' went out into freezing cold seas in small 'boats' to hunt and kill Whales. When they could get them. To give just one example. Man's ability to work in teams, to use weapons and his cunning, have always made him dangerous. And therefore, feared. 
The story adheres to the format of a comic story - at least of that time. We get introduced to the Hero, we see him in action saving a being weaker than himself, then we see that he has an enemy, Klar, who hates hem but is afraid to challenge him openly.
Tor is merciful, he is a more involved man, Klar is fearful and selfish. And yet, Tor gets banished and become a Loner, even though if Klar was the leaderm and Tor defeated him in battle, realistically Tor should have become the new leader. But this is an origin story and the creators want Tor to be a loner,  so that's what we get. 
History of Pre-historic anmals - Man.
This is out of date of course. At least the text says,
'Our knowledge of mans' beginnings on earth is extremely limited.'
We now know, since the discovery and mapping of DNA, that Homo Sapiens and Neanderthan Man lived side-by-side for a period of time and that they interbred - as all human beings have a degree of Neanderthal DNA.
The Wizard of Ugghh
The Wizard of Ugghh  is clearly WC Fields.
If this is Norm Maurer's  Art, how come we don't see more of it?
History of Prehistoric Animals
Great Art and clearly demonstrates Kubert's strong interest in the subject matter.
Danny Dreams
Danny falls asleep and invents the wheel in his imagination.
Clearly meant to be a series, but since it can't be a narrative, is of limited interest to me.
I would have picked this up and read  it for Joe's art, not the stories.
Clearly a labor of love. 
An aside:-
Robb said,
Quote
Yes, indeed, the caveman vs. dinosaur myth is well-embedded into our entertainment culture! Nonsense? Of course! But it makes a damn fine story and entertained millions of us. 

Which reminds me,  it continues.
Kirby did Devil Dinosaur, a Dinosaur that was bright red.
And DC is currently Publishing this.jurassic-league
https://www.polygon.com/22916145/jurassic-league-batman-superman-dinosaurs-dc-comics
Never gets old, does it? 


                     
« Last Edit: July 19, 2023, 05:30:32 AM by The Australian Panther »
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2023, 09:54:26 AM »


One Million Years Ago #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19163

I'm not going to enter into the dialogue about Dinosaurs and Culture or the truth and reality of the time periods in my reviews of the books. I have enjoyed all that, but I want to just look at the work. From a reader's perspective?

An aside:-
Robb said,
Quote
Yes, indeed, the caveman vs. dinosaur myth is well-embedded into our entertainment culture! Nonsense? Of course! But it makes a damn fine story and entertained millions of us. 
[/b]
Which reminds me,  it continues.
Kirby did Devil Dinosaur, a Dinosaur that was bright red.
And DC is currently Publishing this.jurassic-league
https://www.polygon.com/22916145/jurassic-league-batman-superman-dinosaurs-dc-comics
Never gets old, does it? 


Actually, Bowers stated that.  But I have to agree with him.
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