in house dollar bill thumbnail
 Total: 42,817 books
 New: 194 books




small login logo

Please enter your details to login and enjoy all the fun of the fair!

Not a member? Join us here. Everything is FREE and ALWAYS will be.

Forgotten your login details? No problem, you can get your password back here.

Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor

Pages: [1] 2 3

topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor  (Read 2698 times)

K1ngcat

  • VIP
message icon
Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« on: July 10, 2023, 12:43:50 AM »

Special thanks to The Mighty Yoc for his contribution to Reading Group #300, you're welcome back any time, big man!

Now for a trip way back in time from renowned artist Joe Kubert and writer Norman Maurer.

One Million Years Ago #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19163

Tor #3
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=19170

I look forward to your reactions.
All the best
K1ngcat

ip icon Logged

The Australian Panther

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2023, 01:36:07 AM »

Nice one Blues Man!
ip icon Logged

Quirky Quokka

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2023, 01:57:59 AM »

I just had a quick flick through and they look interesting. Will look forward to getting into them.

Cheers

QQ
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 10:30:56 AM by Quirky Quokka »
ip icon Logged

EHowie60

message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2023, 04:15:39 AM »

As you can probably tell from my profile I love old school art of prehistoric creatures. These should be fun! My thoughts to follow.
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2023, 08:05:56 AM »

As you all might guess, knowing that I'm a big history buff, and profess to like realism, rather than fantasy,   you'll probably expect me to ridicule the author(s) for placing Humans (modern ones, yet!) in an environment which also contains dinosaurs, flying reptiles, and marine reptiles from the Jurassic and Cretaceous Periods, from 65 to over 100 million years ago, when assigning even 2.5 million years to Humanids is questionable. 

You guessed right.  I will not be able to resist my instinct to do so (even though Fantasy has a right to exist, and its popularity proves that).  But, what is more questionable, is why I liked "Turok, Son of Stone", when I was old enough to already have learned that the dinosaurs and those ancient reptiles died out many millions of years before even humans most recent ape ancestors started to exist.

Like almost all boys, I loved everything about dinosaurs as a youngster, and so, when Turok started, and I saw that in a lost valley, somewhere in western North America, "Indians" (as we called First Nations people, back then) were forced to deal with those monstrous creatures, who miraculously survived many millions of years after all their related species died out in one of The Earth's great mass extinctions.  Somehow, I could suspend my knowledge of The Earth's natural history to believe (deliberately not thinking too deeply about it) that a very unusual event happened, to allow the conditions to remain close enough to what those animals were well adapted, that they could have survived long enough to adapt slowly, but steadily, to the newer, cooler and drier climate, and that small valley was sheltered by high mountains, so it could have been kept secret from larger amounts of Humans (most who DID find their way there would be killed, in any case).  Similarly, I enjoyed the classic "ancient animal and plant species in lost valley" novels and films (like "Forbidden Valley", "King Kong" and the like.  But, I didn't like the silly Cave Man vs. Dinosaur films, like "One Million B.C.", which were too ridiculous, with not even the thinnest thread of logic left to have a potential pseudo-scientific explanation give me an "out" to suspend my belief and just enjoy the story. 


One Million Years Ago - Written by Joe Kubert and Norm Maurer, Drawn by Joe Kubert
One Million Years Ago
For some reason I never enjoyed Tor or its ilk.  Maybe that's because its author(s) set the timing of the series a million years in the past, and the Humans there are MODERN, clean shaven, Humans, who, they claim "COULD have normally lived alongside those gigantic, dangerous beasts, because the latter "died out very slowly" (again going dead against ALL scientific opinion), and bragging about how we intelligent Humans survived against those incredible odds, to survive until today, when almost ALL the other species from those bygone ages are long gone.  It's unconscionable to assign such an embarrassing and impossible task.  I wonder if Maurer and Kubert's editor assigned them to try to make the story's setting appear to have been plausible, and thus, NON-Fiction, by setting it up with a scientific explanation, or if the author and artist chose to have the scientific introduction, as their own idea?  The wording at the end gave me a good chuckle: "When you turn this page, you will BE in 1,000,000 BC!"  And, not satisfied with the impossibilities posed by what they already stated, they (or he) states: "Why, out of all the myriad forms of life, does one SPECIES emerge above the rest? -and continue to flourish through MILLIONS of GENERATIONS, while all the mighty titans of prehistoric Times DIE OUT!" (should be a question mark here).  With Sharks surviving on Earth for over 300 million years, and Humanids perhaps 5 or 6 million (if we stretch it to the nth possibility or definition), why is the Human bragging about his survival prowess???

In 1953, I already knew that dinosaurs died out long before Humans lived, and when only a few tiny mammals lived.  Scientist thought, at that time, that Modern Humans had only been on Earth for, maybe 75,000 to 100,000 years.  As an editor, I'd have wanted them to avoid throwing the science in the readers' faces, only to make it harder for them to suspend their knowledge.  Why not simply just NOT dwell on the science, and go with the traditional fantasy theme (by default).  The young boy reader wants to see action, and to identify with a brave soul who conquers mighty foes against impossible odds, and all boys love monsters (especially dinosaurs).  So give all that to them, WITHOUT trying to convince them that it's something it is NOT.

I'm not trying to imply that I Hate this book.  Joe Kubert's artwork is a great pleasure to behold.  The colouring could be a little better.  But it's not bad.  The stories just don't do much for me (nothing like what I liked in Turok).  But, I haven't even opened one of the latter in at least 50 years.  Maybe I wouldn't feel the same way about them now, as an almost 80-year old?

They COULD have set the time as 20,000 to 100,000 years ago, with the men fighting saber-toothed cats, cave bears, short-nosed bears, dire wolves, and hunting Wooly Mammoths.  But those animals are too close to today's animals, and so, not as exotic as dinosaurs and even more ancient reptiles.  And the main species of them the artist would draw, would also be much, much bigger, and thus, much, much more dangerous.  So, there was really no choice to be "plausible".  It's "safe" not daring, and not commercial.  They can get that kind of luke warm "entertainment" in school. 

The Wizard of Ugghh
Ha! Ha!  Comedy relief!  The Flintstones meet W.C. Fields (complete with leopard skin Cave-Man suit, Top Hat and Cigar)!!!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   I wonder what the sales totals were for this series?  I guess St. John was so desperate to hang with the big boy publishers that he'd try anything to get an artist like Kubert.  This reminds me of some of those early knock-offs of EC's "Tales Calculated To Drive You MAD", like Farrell's "Madhouse", St. John's "Whack", and Charlton's "Eh!".   Kubert's art style on this comedy piece is surprisingly good.  The jokes aren't funny, but the whole story moves at a torrid pace.  Not a bad read.  But i was mostly enjoying the art.

Danny Dreams
A boy who goes to a natural history museum, views dinosaur bones, falls asleep and dreams of travelling back in time, to the era of the dinosaurs.  He first sees Cavemen, who chase after him, trying to kill him.  He soon meets a giant bear, and a saber-toothed cat.  They fight each other, so he is safe.  He is awakened by his teacher, but sees a museum display of the bear's and saber-tooth cat's bones, in the exact position of how they died in his dream.  So he wonders if he had dreamt, or had been taken back in time, many thousands of years.  The art was excellent.  The story didn't have much to it.  But it was very short on pages.  So, it was satisfactory for what it was.

All in all, this was a decent read for a book in a comic genre not among my favourites.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 10:12:57 AM by Robb_K »
ip icon Logged

K1ngcat

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2023, 12:37:36 AM »

Well done Robb, you haven't wasted much time on getting into this thread!  I'm not familiar with Turok, Son of Stone, though I gather it shares a similar publication date to Tor, and centers around Native Americans who discover a "Land that Time Forgot" rather than being inhabitants of a supposed pre-historic world that allows men and dinosaurs to exist simultaneously.

Though I know their research is not faultless, the GCD lists Norman Maurer as being both writer and artist for The Wizard of Ugghh. But it does offer an interesting change of pace and direction, as does Danny Dreams, which is credited solely to Kubert.

I'm glad you found things to enjoy in this choice. I wonder if, given your years of experience, you can solve what is currently a mystery to me? The first issue, 1,000,000 Years Ago, is published as a one-shot by Star, whereas the subsequent issues are credited directly to St. John's. Any idea what the connection between the two headers is?

All contributions gratefully received!
Looking forward to your next review
All the best
K1ngcat
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2023, 05:19:38 AM »


Well done Robb, you haven't wasted much time on getting into this thread!  I'm not familiar with Turok, Son of Stone, though I gather it shares a similar publication date to Tor, and centers around Native Americans who discover a "Land that Time Forgot" rather than being inhabitants of a supposed pre-historic world that allows men and dinosaurs to exist simultaneously.

Though I know their research is not faultless, the GCD lists Norman Maurer as being both writer and artist for The Wizard of Ugghh. But it does offer an interesting change of pace and direction, as does Danny Dreams, which is credited solely to Kubert.

I'm glad you found things to enjoy in this choice. I wonder if, given your years of experience, you can solve what is currently a mystery to me? The first issue, 1,000,000 Years Ago, is published as a one-shot by Star, whereas the subsequent issues are credited directly to St. John's. Any idea what the connection between the two headers is?

All contributions gratefully received!
Looking forward to your next review
All the best
K1ngcat


The first issue of this series, "1,000,000 Years Ago", was produced by Kubert and Maurer, while they were working for comic artist L.B. Cole and lawyer Gerhard (Gerry) Kramer's Star Publications (who had been the continuation of Novelty Press, who sold out to them in 1949).  Star published "Blue Bolt" and several Horror titles. they had also bought out a few of Fox Features' series when Victor Fox was in legal trouble and stripping down his comics publications in 1950.  Star was used by the notorious Dr. Wertham, as one of the main examples of purveyors of comic book material deleterious to the psyches of young children readers, with its books containing stories with too much vivid violence, horror, prurient visual sexual content, inappropriate language, etc.  So, there was pressure from a US Senate committee for actions against such publishers.  They had to pay out much money in lawyers fees for legal advice, even before legal action started against them.  In late 1953 Star apparently made a deal with St. John for distribution of this series, as they were running out of funds.  With partner, Kramer seriously ill, things got tougher for Cole, who started selling off his properties to raise legal funds.  Apparently, Cole sold the rights to "Tor" to St. John in early 1954, starting with the 2nd issue in the series *(first with Tor in the Title).  Cole also sold his funny animal archive of artwork and rights to its characters from "Frisky Fables" and "Frisky Animals" and some of his Fox children's series back to Robert Farrell's Ajax/Farrell Publishing (from whom he had gotten them in the first place, when Farrell, Victor Fox's right-hand-man/office manger) after the latter had bought them from Fox when he was desperate for money to pay his legal fees. St. John also bought some artwork and series copyrights from Ziff-Davis, and a couple other small publishers, between 1952 and 1954, when the latter were shutting down their operations.

Turok, Son of Stone, was first published by Western Publishing/Dell Comics in Spring 1954.  So Tor started a little earlier, and they ran concurrently until Tor stopped; and Turok lasted much longer (till 1967, as far as I remember, moving from Dell to Gold Key near the end of 1962, along with the rest of Western Publishing's self-owned properties).
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 08:33:50 AM by Robb_K »
ip icon Logged

Morgus

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2023, 05:41:52 AM »

Alright, Kingcat.
It's summer time and for one reason or another I always associate Joe Kubert with summer vacation reading. The two issues were great. You get the impression the guys ENJOYED pitting dinos and men against each other facts be damned. I mean, who as kid DIDN'T match them up in the sandbox?
We all start out fascinated by dinosaurs but some of us lose that fascination as we get older. Like Ray Bradbury, you could tell these guys were still wishing they could be back in the playground making noises as the fight got going again.
The art is first rate, with the added enjoyment of watching people almost morph into Sgt Rock or one of the goons from ENEMY ACE.
Robb was right, Wizard of Ugghh wasn't funny, and that's a shame. Visually it was a treat.
I would have loved these as a kid and probably would have worn them out. Glad they're still around to read today.
These were a great summer read. Thanks Kingcat.
ip icon Logged

Quirky Quokka

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2023, 08:20:53 AM »

One Million Years Ago No. 1

It was interesting having the writer/artist bios and the call for reader feedback. Not that that's new in itself, but they're making a pledge that 'consideration as to content in future issues will be based entirely on letters received from you'. Did they stick to that pledge?

Also interesting to have the page where the authors are talking directly to the readers in comic-book form. As Robb notes, it's interesting that they make such a big deal about looking at the facts and doing tons of research, but then have a story that goes against fact. I'm quite happy to have a fantasy story where people live alongside dinosaurs. Maybe the people travelled back in time in the Tardis. But why make a big deal about facts and research if you then don't stick with it?

Tor

The art was really good, though not the most riveting story. I guess it sets the scene for future episodes. Interesting that Joe interrupts the story to draw a parallel between people of the past and present and how those themes could happen today. Again, trying to give it that air of realism. Though I did wonder how those cave people were going to survive when it appears there's only one woman in the group  :D

The glossary of Chee Chee's language was a nice touch.

Wizard of Ugghh

I know they say this is silly, but I still thought it was a bit of a stretch to have a caveman wizard wearing one of those dickey shirtfronts. Though no different I suppose to the way the Flintstones were portrayed. I got a bit confused though, because I was thinking the wizard was a charlatan doing tricks, but I couldn’t work out some of them. Not so keen about the sleezy old guy pashing the two young beauties, but this was well before ‘Me too’ and would have fit slapstick humour back then. Too bad the girls didn’t slap him.

The punchline at the end wasn’t funny, but I suppose it was good to have a lighter piece in there.

Underworld

I was thinking this was going to be a piece of short fiction, though it seems to be nonfiction. I don't know enough about the science to know if the geology is accurate, but it's not the most riveting article.

Danny Dreams

I'm no engineer, but I don't think Danny will be able to sit on that axle with the wheels spinning. Won't it just get all tangled? The premise was spelled out a bit too much at the end, and it wasn't the greatest story, but the art was good.

Scrapbook Fact Sheets

Parents probably would have liked the three fact sheets, though I don't know enough about dinosaurs to know if it's accurate. Would kids have cut these out and stuck them in scrapbooks? Maybe.

All in all, an interesting comic with good art. Would be interesting to see if the stories get better.

Cheers

QQ
ip icon Logged

The Australian Panther

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2023, 09:26:09 AM »

Kingcat said,
Quote
I'm not familiar with Turok, Son of Stone

Turok
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turok
Quote
The Western Publishing version of Turok was a Pre-Columbian era Native American (identified as Mandan in the first issue, on page 21 and 32 of Dell Four Color #596) who, along with his brother, Andar, finds himself lost in an isolated valley populated by dinosaurs.

One of Western Publishing's most popular and long-running characters.
Second series was by VALIANT. Nowhere near as good. 
While I'm at it, there's quite a bit more to TOR as well.
What we have here on CB+ is the beginning, but not the end. 
Tor (comics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(comics)
Quote
After his debut in 1,000,000 Years Ago (St. John, September 1953), Tor immediately went on to become one of the first comic book characters to star in 3-D comic books.[2] The second issue of that series was renamed 3-D Comics[3] before being renamed Tor with issue #3 in May 1954.[4] At this point the series was once again in the traditional two-dimensional format. This series lasted until issue #5 (October 1954).

In an interview, Kubert said: "Certainly in a superficial sense, Tor was my Tarzan. Of course, Tor wasn't raised by apes. He was raised by other primitive men and women. I suppose Tarzan and Tor are similar in that they are superior to the others of their clan. But with Tor, I chose to emphasize that he had an extra spark of humanity, and was instinctively striving for a better, more civilized way of life than that of his brothers".[5]

In 1959, Kubert and inker Carmine Infantino unsuccessfully attempted to sell Tor as a newspaper comic strip. The samples consisted of 12 daily strips, reprinted in six pages in Alter Ego #10 (1969) and later expanded to 16 pages in DC Comics' Tor #1. DC Comics would publish the Tor series for 6 issues from 1974–1975.[6][7]

Eclipse Comics reprinted the two 3-D Comics featuring Tor, both in 3-D and non-3-D versions in 1986.[8] As well, the magazine Sojourn featured new Tor stories by Kubert, and in 1993, Marvel Comics' Epic imprint published the four-issue miniseries Tor,[9] with new stories by Kubert, who had acquired and maintained rights to the character.

Alter Ego #77 (May 2008) has a long article on St. John comics by noted comic historian Ken Quattro. The cover reprints the cover of Tor #3 from the original artwork and there is a Roy Thomas interview with Joe Kubert about his experiences at St. John.

Between 2001 and 2003, DC Comics published a three volume hardcover reprint series called Tor,[10] while in 2008, they published a new six issue miniseries.[11] In 2009, DC published a hardcover collection called Tor: A Prehistoric Odyssey,[12] while in 2010 they published it in the softcover format.[13]

A two-page story drawn by comics legend Lou Fine in a toy company's custom one-shot, Wham-O Giant Comics (1967), starred a prehistoric man named Tor, but this character is unrelated to the same-name Kubert creation.[14]

As it happens, the genre is not one of my favorites.
For both the series, I loved the art but was bored by the narrative. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 09:31:10 AM by The Australian Panther »
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2023, 05:14:09 PM »

I had no idea Turok lasted with Western's Golden Key Comics all the way until its end in 1982.  But that's because I started spending most of my time away from North America in 1967, and comics, other than checking for any Barks continuing works, and moved back to Holland in 1972.  And finding out that Turok became one of Gold Key's major series, saleswise, and was later resurrected in modern US comic book series is also surprising to me.
ip icon Logged

EHowie60

message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2023, 05:35:13 PM »

Quote

Parents probably would have liked the three fact sheets, though I don't know enough about dinosaurs to know if it's accurate. Would kids have cut these out and stuck them in scrapbooks? Maybe.

From what I can tell, those fact sheets were up to date for the 50s, probably referenced from then-current books. The Stegosaurus one even avoids a misconception I still see in casual dinosaur media today, the idea that Stegosaurus had two (or three) brains. Kubert and Maurer have it right in that the two enlargements were bundles of nerves, not brains.
ip icon Logged
Comic Book Plus In-House Image

K1ngcat

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2023, 01:06:52 AM »


Alright, Kingcat.
It's summer time and for one reason or another I always associate Joe Kubert with summer vacation reading. The two issues were great. You get the impression the guys ENJOYED pitting dinos and men against each other facts be damned. I mean, who as kid DIDN'T match them up in the sandbox?
We all start out fascinated by dinosaurs but some of us lose that fascination as we get older. Like Ray Bradbury, you could tell these guys were still wishing they could be back in the playground making noises as the fight got going again.
The art is first rate, with the added enjoyment of watching people almost morph into Sgt Rock or one of the goons from ENEMY ACE.
Robb was right, Wizard of Ugghh wasn't funny, and that's a shame. Visually it was a treat.
I would have loved these as a kid and probably would have worn them out. Glad they're still around to read today.
These were a great summer read. Thanks Kingcat.


Glad you enjoyed them, Morgus. What is it about kids and dinosaurs, eh? I remember my three main passions were dinosaurs, WW1 aeroplanes, and medieval heraldry.  Then I discovered comics, pop music and girls and the first three went straight out the window! But dinos are still doing big busines. The Jurassic Park/World movies have been very popular, I've seen wildlife parks with big plastic dinos, and even animatronic dinos in London's Natural History Museum. Those critters just won't stay down!  ;D
ip icon Logged

K1ngcat

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2023, 01:12:57 AM »


The first issue of this series, "1,000,000 Years Ago", was produced by Kubert and Maurer, while they were working for comic artist L.B. Cole and lawyer Gerhard (Gerry) Kramer's Star Publications (who had been the continuation of Novelty Press, who sold out to them in 1949).  Star published "Blue Bolt" and several Horror titles. they had also bought out a few of Fox Features' series when Victor Fox was in legal trouble and stripping down his comics publications in 1950.  Star was used by the notorious Dr. Wertham, as one of the main examples of purveyors of comic book material deleterious to the psyches of young children readers, with its books containing stories with too much vivid violence, horror, prurient visual sexual content, inappropriate language, etc.  So, there was pressure from a US Senate committee for actions against such publishers.  They had to pay out much money in lawyers fees for legal advice, even before legal action started against them.  In late 1953 Star apparently made a deal with St. John for distribution of this series, as they were running out of funds.  With partner, Kramer seriously ill, things got tougher for Cole, who started selling off his properties to raise legal funds.  Apparently, Cole sold the rights to "Tor" to St. John in early 1954, starting with the 2nd issue in the series *(first with Tor in the Title).  Cole also sold his funny animal archive of artwork and rights to its characters from "Frisky Fables" and "Frisky Animals" and some of his Fox children's series back to Robert Farrell's Ajax/Farrell Publishing (from whom he had gotten them in the first place, when Farrell, Victor Fox's right-hand-man/office manger) after the latter had bought them from Fox when he was desperate for money to pay his legal fees. St. John also bought some artwork and series copyrights from Ziff-Davis, and a couple other small publishers, between 1952 and 1954, when the latter were shutting down their operations.

Turok, Son of Stone, was first published by Western Publishing/Dell Comics in Spring 1954.  So Tor started a little earlier, and they ran concurrently until Tor stopped; and Turok lasted much longer (till 1967, as far as I remember, moving from Dell to Gold Key near the end of 1962, along with the rest of Western Publishing's self-owned properties).


Thanks for all that info, Robb, you're the man!  8)
ip icon Logged

Quirky Quokka

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2023, 02:24:54 AM »


Quote

Parents probably would have liked the three fact sheets, though I don't know enough about dinosaurs to know if it's accurate. Would kids have cut these out and stuck them in scrapbooks? Maybe.

From what I can tell, those fact sheets were up to date for the 50s, probably referenced from then-current books. The Stegosaurus one even avoids a misconception I still see in casual dinosaur media today, the idea that Stegosaurus had two (or three) brains. Kubert and Maurer have it right in that the two enlargements were bundles of nerves, not brains.


Thanks EHowie60. I missed the whole dinosaur popularity thing when I was a kid. Though we do have some dinosaur remains here in Australia, and travelling to that part of my state is on my bucket list. It's about 1200 km from where I live though, so probably won't be doing it this weekend  :D

https://www.australianageofdinosaurs.com/

Cheers

QQ
ip icon Logged

The Australian Panther

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2023, 06:20:06 AM »

As QQ has pointed out, we have here in Australia, in western Queensland, a major fossil site.
Australia's first complete Plesiosaur fossil discovered in outback Queensland
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-07/fossil-discovery-queensland-museum-townsville-plesiosaur/101735306
Note the size of that thing. Also note the Related Stories at the bottom of the page. 
I take everything written about dinosaurs as non-conclusive, as
1/ There are constant new discoveries many of which contradict earlier theories.

2/ For every statement made, I can find someone making a definite argument or providing a piece of evidence to challenge that statement.
3/ The History of the scientific area of fossils and early life-forms is riddled with known fraud.
The Top Ten Dinosaur Discoveries of 2021
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-top-ten-dinosaur-discoveries-of-2021-180979215/
Quote
New species are being described at a fast-and-furious pace, with 42 species named just this year, and paleontologists have also been investigating and arguing about everything from patterns of dinosaur evolution to the ethics of fossil collecting. This year’s finds help set up the studies and debates that we’ll be sure to see in the years ahead,

And that was 6 months ago.
Any narratives about Dinosaurs should only be seen as speculative fiction as Tor and Turok certainly are.
And there are still comics and movies being made about them.   
ip icon Logged

Morgus

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2023, 02:11:06 AM »

“Panther, thanks for the articles and the pics. Kingcat wondered about the continuing allure of dinos with kids, and those pics go a long way to demonstrate it. Just seeing the fossils beside the humans laying on the ground gives you one of their biggest draws; they were so damn big. And those guys in the article were not even the apex predators.
Now, for us, if Joe Kubert was summertime reading, Turok was always Christmas because we’d get an issue in the stocking. Him and Korak. But Tor you have to kind of admire. He hung in there, going company to company for years, real durability.

By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary; that dinos and humans lived together. 40% think they died out only 2000 to 10,000 years ago. Half of those think they only left 100 years ago.
And somewhere near 50% think they could still be alive in one of those forgotten places, VALLEY OF GWANGI style. Where are James Franciscus and Richard Carlson when we need them?
ip icon Logged

SuperScrounge

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2023, 02:55:52 AM »

One Million Years Ago

Joe Kubert is more muscular than I thought he was. I thought he was thinner than the picture & drawing show him to be.

On the other hand Joe's drawing of Norm's face makes him look like a 16 year old kid instead of someone who's the same age as Joe.

"This globe represents the Earth"
Uhhh... what part of Earth is pictured there? Joe, there's a time for imagination and a time for reference pics.

Tor story
What is that blue creature on the splash page? Something that failed to be fossilized? It has elements of a marine creature, but what appear to be wings, as well. Very strange considering Joe & Norm's talk about research.

"What made man so different from all the other beasts?"
Anyone else get the feeling this was about to veer into being a Chick Tract?  ;)

Why didn't Tor try to get a chunk of meat off of the swamp monster instead of worrying about losing his fishing spear?

Similar question when Tor kills the terror-lizard. You'd think the tribe would try to get as much meat as possible off the beast before other scavengers show up.

Nits aside, it's not a bad story, tells us what we need to know about our hero and shows he has what it takes to be the lead in the 'one man against the world' stories that will follow. The art's also good, but the name Joe Kubert guarantees that.

Chee-Chee's Glossary
Who knew so much thought was put into Chee-Chee's chatterings?

The Wizard of Ugghh
Oh... my sides... they are aching... from all the laughing... I'm not doing.
This story was a dud. Some ideas that seem like they might be funny, if done right, but they weren't.

Underworld
Kind of funny that if you think about it, most of this article is just padding to fill space around what little science knew about the interior of the Earth.

Stegosaurus & Tyrannosaurus
Someone should send these pages to the Your Dinosaurs Are Wrong YouTube channel.  ;)

Danny Dreams
Interesting, but the whole dream gimmick has been so overdone that it's hard to get enthused about it.
ip icon Logged

SuperScrounge

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2023, 03:14:50 AM »

By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary; that dinos and humans lived together. 40% think they died out only 2000 to 10,000 years ago. Half of those think they only left 100 years ago.

Are you saying George Washington didn't cross the Delaware on the back of a plesiosaur?  :o I'm shocked! Shocked!!!  ;)
ip icon Logged

EHowie60

message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2023, 03:55:26 AM »



Why didn't Tor try to get a chunk of meat off of the swamp monster instead of worrying about losing his fishing spear?

Similar question when Tor kills the terror-lizard. You'd think the tribe would try to get as much meat as possible off the beast before other scavengers show up.

I read somewhere once that T rex would have been darn near inedible. Predators aren't usally tasty, and T Rex would have accumulated heavy metals from its prey.
ip icon Logged

EHowie60

message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2023, 04:13:01 AM »

1,000,000 Years Ago:
All right! This looks like fun. Kid me would have...well kid me at a certain age would have hated this comic since I was a stickler for accuracy in my dinosaur related media. I watched Walking With Dinosaurs, not The Land Before Time. But I mellowed out eventually, read some Dinotopia, and nowadays I can accept a little bit (or a large bit) of inaccuracy in the service of zany art. So let's journey back 66 million 1 million years, and begin!

You know, looking at the cover I think I've read this before, or at least I've read some of the Tor comics.  Nice cover art, I love the shocked monkey and the snarling monster.

The letter about the artist and the author is a nice touch. It's rare to see any detail about the creators in comics of this era. And the intro from the pair is fun too! A little scientific background.

"Dawn...the dawn of a new day...over a new world!" Great start. And of course we have our splash page, with prehistoric monsters locked in mortal combat! Man looks on contemplatively. Lovely art, Tor makes for a dynamic figure.

Tor is a man of few words, so the captions more than pick up the slack. The writing is a little bombastic but I think that's pretty fun, myself. Pure 50s optimism of the "triumph of man over nature". Aw and he made a friend! Chee-Chee is pretty cute. Useful, too. He's sending out all kinds of warnings! I like the dinosaur in the rock slide panels.

Klar makes for a very straightforward villain, but after all it is the dawn of villainy, too. Joe Kubert takes a moment to spell it all out for us. One fight and judgement later and Tor is exiled, doomed to wander the earth...

I like the little "scrapbook" feature. An animal a month! Very fun, love the large size art and the detail on the Neanderthal man.

The Wizard of Ugh: Well...I believe them when they say they had fun making it!

Oh that Stegosaurus. What a wonderful piece of 50s paleoart. They're having a little drink! The Tyrannosaurus is fun too. Compare to a modern illustration and see how the reconstruction has changed.

Danny Dreams: Poor Danny! Teleported to the past without the skills of Tor to help him survive. The cavemen he meets are the type to axe first, question later. I love the menacing prehistoric bear! It's obvious that Kubert knew his craft and had good reference material. Danny invents the wheel, or rather finds the wheel, escapes, and it was all a dream...or was it?

Tor #3
Isle of Fire: Oh well will you look at that, I have read this one before. I knew Tor felt familiar. That's one heck of a cover! Very dynamic, I love the flames on the tree trunk. And the splash page of Tor at the seaside is good too. The man loves to contemplate, it seems. Ever notice that every predator in this comic acts like a shark stereotype? One scent of blood and suddenly it's frenzy time.

Oh! Suddenly there's mutants! Perhaps Maurer had given up on the realism angle a little. Readers might or might not have known the chronology of dinosaurs back then, but the fire-men are clear fantasy. More subtle is the fact that the cave-woman seems to be wearing cave-lipstick. Another fun firey panel and the people are saved.

Didn't expect the text story to be from Tor's POV. The narration in the comic stories doesn't give you much insight into his thoughts. Otherwise unremarkable.

The interlude on page 17 is interesting. Seems they got some complaints from creationists. And they also confirm what I thought: even back then, humans living alongside dinosaurs was considered unlikely to impossible.

The Black Valley: I suppose with a subject like this, the "tribe of Amazons" trope was inevitable! The double page spread is very cool. Kubert definitely had the skills to make the most of it.

So the Amazons stand paralyzed with fear until Tor takes action. I'd suspect the story of being sexist, except as we saw in the last couple Tor stories, everyone Tor meets stands paralyzed with fear until Tor takes action. Seems like he's the world's first decisive human.

Neat Pteranodon drawing. It's nice to see a lesser known pterosaur like Rhamphorhynchus getting some panel space too!

Danny Dreams: Danny invents the fish net. Is he also supposed to be 1,000,000 years in the past? In a few more episodes he'll probably be introducing agriculture. But in the end he wakes up and it's alll a dream...except he doesn't! Suppose they felt the formula needed a shakeup.

And rounding things out with a Tylosaurus, another neat bit of 50s paleoart.

All in all this was a very fun pair of books. Lovely art, especially the then state-of-the-art depictions of prehistoric creatures. Kubert was a very skilled artist, and his talent was on full display here.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to finish typing up my rant about the scientific inaccuracies in the books... :P
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2023, 06:01:16 AM »


“Panther, thanks for the articles and the pics. Kingcat wondered about the continuing allure of dinos with kids, and those pics go a long way to demonstrate it. Just seeing the fossils beside the humans laying on the ground gives you one of their biggest draws; they were so damn big. And those guys in the article were not even the apex predators.
Now, for us, if Joe Kubert was summertime reading, Turok was always Christmas because we’d get an issue in the stocking. Him and Korak. But Tor you have to kind of admire. He hung in there, going company to company for years, real durability.

By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary; that dinos and humans lived together. 40% think they died out only 2000 to 10,000 years ago. Half of those think they only left 100 years ago.
And somewhere near 50% think they could still be alive in one of those forgotten places, VALLEY OF GWANGI style. Where are James Franciscus and Richard Carlson when we need them?


How could The Dinos have disappeared 10,000 years ago, when The World is only 6,000 years old????  Those that guess the 2,000 years ago figure MUST be right!  :P
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2023, 06:14:00 AM »




Why didn't Tor try to get a chunk of meat off of the swamp monster instead of worrying about losing his fishing spear?

Similar question when Tor kills the terror-lizard. You'd think the tribe would try to get as much meat as possible off the beast before other scavengers show up.

I read somewhere once that T rex would have been darn near inedible. Predators aren't usually tasty, and T Rex would have accumulated heavy metals from its prey.


How many Human men, with only sharpened-end all wood spears, would it take to down a fully mature T-Rex?  Or were there even any spears a million years ago?  Actually I don't think Lucy's tribe or any other Hominids had them that early.  Do you think even a thousand Homo Ergasters tossing stones at such a big animal could kill it?  Were there ever 500 hominids together in one place back in those days?  I doubt they could find enough for all of them to eat regularly, if they were all in the same place.  They'd eat up all the ripe fruit and vegetables in their local area, and need to travel every day.  They'd get awfully tired (especially if they'd try to kill giant dinosaurs and other large reptiles, and always fail).  They'd be killed off very fast attempting that, in any case.
ip icon Logged

Robb_K

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2023, 06:26:06 AM »


“Panther, thanks for the articles and the pics. Kingcat wondered about the continuing allure of dinos with kids, and those pics go a long way to demonstrate it. Just seeing the fossils beside the humans laying on the ground gives you one of their biggest draws; they were so damn big. And those guys in the article were not even the apex predators.
Now, for us, if Joe Kubert was summertime reading, Turok was always Christmas because we’d get an issue in the stocking. Him and Korak. But Tor you have to kind of admire. He hung in there, going company to company for years, real durability.

By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary; that dinos and humans lived together. (1) 40% think they died out only 2000 to 10,000 years ago. Half of those think they only left 100 years ago.
And somewhere near 50% think they could still be alive in one of those forgotten places, VALLEY OF GWANGI style. Where are James Franciscus and Richard Carlson when we need them?

I pray that those polls were NOT designed properly, and that those numbers are NOT representative of their entire population, and thus, severely overblown, as I have a sister and nephew and niece living there, plus another sister and family and lots of extended family living not much more than 150 miles from the border of that country.  But, having spent a lot of time there, especially recently, unfortunately I think they might well be accurate. Must be due to too much air and water pollution, and fast food.

(1) They think Humans, or Dinos died out then?  Or BOTH???    ;D.  Actually, those 2,000 and 10,000 years ago figures represent when it is thought that The Mini-Mammoth of Wrangel Island, and The (full-sized) Continental Woolly Mammoth of Siberia and North America.  Oh well, all land animals larger than any we have today were so similar that their differences don't matter.  Maybe they were both the same word (meaning "big animal") back a million years ago?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 07:22:49 AM by Robb_K »
ip icon Logged

Quirky Quokka

  • VIP
message icon
Re: Reading Group #301 Joe Kubert & Tor
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2023, 07:21:15 AM »



By the way, was talking to a pal the other day, and he told me some eye opening numbers. 41% of Americans think THE FLINTSTONES are a documentary;



I loved watching the Flintstones reality show as a kid. It had to be real, because they had real people in it. Who could forget the episode when Ann-Margrock sang? Not to mention Gary Granite and Gina Loadabricks. Plus you can't tell me all of Wilma's household appliances weren't real. We're still using the updated versions today.  :D

QQ
ip icon Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3
 

Comic Book Plus In-House Image
Mission: Our mission is to present free of charge, and to the widest audience, popular cultural works of the past. These are offered as a contribution to education and lifelong learning. They reflect the attitudes, perspectives, and beliefs of different times. We do not endorse these views, which may contain content offensive to modern users.

Disclaimer: We aim to house only Public Domain content. If you suspect that any of our material may be infringing copyright, please use our contact page to let us know. So we can investigate further. Utilizing our downloadable content, is strictly at your own risk. In no event will we be liable for any loss or damage including without limitation, indirect or consequential loss or damage, or any loss or damage whatsoever arising from loss of data or profits arising out of, or in connection with, the use of this website.