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Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics  (Read 435 times)

Robb_K

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Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« on: April 28, 2024, 06:42:23 PM »

To provide the widest view of CB+'s reading material, we have tried to introduce Golden Age and early Silver Age publications from every different section of this website.  In attempting to do that, we've suggested choosing books from our Non-English section.  But that suggestion was met with luke-warm and even less enthusiastic responses.  So, given that I feel that our non-English language publications have merit, and good reading entertainment value, I've translated 3 of our Dutch Golden Age books for review and discussion this fortnight.  Crashryan and SuperScrounge provided the text manipulation graphics and uploading book assembly, and help in uploading.  All 3 original Dutch books were provided by Paw Broon.  The books are as follows:

(1) The Second Pimpernel 1

Translation of "De Tweede Pimpernel", A digest size (significantly less than half the size of a standard vertically-oriented comic book) Beeldroman (graphic novel) in black and white, written and drawn, in 1947, by Siem Praamsma, published by W.A. Polder, of Amsterdam.  This was No. 1 in a series of 8 issues, covering eight self-intact episodes of an ongoing saga.  I plan to translate all 8, and compile them into a compilation to be uploaded into our Scanlation section within the next several months.  This is the story of a modern masked mystery man, patterned after the classic Scarlet Pimpernel novel's 18th Century masked crusader for the people's welfare versus the wealthy noblemen's crimes against them.  Similar to many other fictional caped crusaders for the public's safety, The Pimpernel feels the need to help the not-quite effective enough police stop criminals from succeeding in committing their dastardly crimes.  In this first episode, The 2nd Pimpernel discovers a plot of several unscrupulous businessmen's heinous plans to take over key war industries.  I'm hoping that my translation will reveal the very subtle tongue-in-cheek humour that might not be noticed by readers with only a smattering of knowledge of the Dutch language.

You can find "The 2nd Pimpernel 1" here:   https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=89314

(2)  The Sledgehammer 1 - The Vulture of Paris

Translation of "De Moker 1 ", another mini-sized Beeldroman, also in black and white, drawn by Hans Ducro in early 1948, and published by Jago Uitgeverij of Haarlem.  This was No. 1 of a series of 10 graphic novels containing completely unrelated stories, all 10 stories drawn by Ducro.  CB+ currently has only 4 of them, but I hope to make a compilation of their scanlations, once we obtain a few more.  Jago also published the beeldroman late 1940s, action-based, crime fighter series of 19 issues, "Bob Crack".  In this story, The Sledgehammer steals back money stolen by a banking consortium's chief banker from the ordinary people through usuric loans.  He makes a thrilling escape from the Paris Police, and returns the money to the grateful victims.  This story also has a touch of subtle humour.

You can find "The Sledgehammer 1" here:   https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=89338

(3)  Fulgor - Stratosphere Flyer 7 - The City of Steel

Translation of "Fulgor - De Stratosfeervlieger 7 - De Staalstad", a horizontal, landscape-oriented, single tier, mini-comic, in black and white, written by Augusto Pedrazza and Roberto Renzi, and drawn by Pedrazza, in 1953, and published by Walter Lehning Uitgeverij of Amsterdam.  This Science-Fiction series contained 48 issues of an ongoing saga, in newspaper daily, single tier style.  Unfortunately, we have only 6 of the issues, and not all are consecutive.  In this self-standing episode, future Earth's "rocket man", Fulgor, travels to Mars to try to rescue his fiancée, who was captured by the evil dictator of that planet's dominant empire.  He succeeds in rescuing her, but also discovers a dastardly Martian plot to destroy all of Earth's civilisation.

You can find "Fulgor - The Stratosphere Flyer 7 - The Steel City" here:   https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=89316

I hope you will enjoy reading these Dutch Golden Age unusual format rarities, and look forward to our discussion about them.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 08:53:31 PM by Robb_K »
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2024, 09:41:17 PM »

Thanks for your hard work Robb and helpers.
I've been looking forward to this!
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2024, 11:37:20 PM »

Thank you Robb for the translations, CrashRyan and SuperScrounge for all the technical work and Paw Broon for providing the comics. You've all certainly gone above and beyond the call of duty. I've downloaded them and have had a quick scan through. They look great. I'll look forward to reading them. If you haven't already done so, maybe advertise them in some of the other forums, as they may attract a wider interest.

Cheers

QQ
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2024, 06:18:54 PM »

Great work all. I read the comics when I was uploading them.  Well, read isn't quite right as I don't have more than a few words of Dutch.  But it is possible to intuit some of what's going on.
I hope having these and other scanlations will get folk interested in the history of Dutch comics.  For insights, try this,
https://www.lambiek.net/dutchcomics/1945.htm

The tiny beeldromans intrigue me and I've seen a lot in comic shops in the Netherlands.
Many of the titles are very wordy in parts, as you can see reading the Pimpernel.  It does slow down the storytelling.
In passing, Fulgor might have originally been an Italian strip.  I need to check that. It's been reprinted in Germany.
"I'm not telling, he, he" 
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2024, 08:28:45 PM »


Great work all. I read the comics when I was uploading them.  Well, read isn't quite right as I don't have more than a few words of Dutch.  But it is possible to intuit some of what's going on.
I hope having these and other scanlations will get folk interested in the history of Dutch comics.  For insights, try this,
https://www.lambiek.net/dutchcomics/1945.htm

The tiny beeldromans intrigue me and I've seen a lot in comic shops in the Netherlands.
Many of the titles are very wordy in parts, as you can see reading the Pimpernel.  It does slow down the storytelling.
In passing, Fulgor might have originally been an Italian strip.  I need to check that. It's been reprinted in Germany.
"I'm not telling, he, he"

I'm almost sure that "Fulgor" was, an original Italian production, given that Pradazza and Renzi were Italian creators, and the format and design of that horizontally-oriented mini-comic matched the exact shape and size of many Italian mini-comic series of that time.  I'm also guessing that it had been a 1-tier, daily or weekly newspaper strip.  Apparently, it was reprinted in The Netherlands, and Germany (and probably France, as well).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 10:29:06 PM by Robb_K »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2024, 05:09:30 AM »


Great work all. I read the comics when I was uploading them.  Well, read isn't quite right as I don't have more than a few words of Dutch.  But it is possible to intuit some of what's going on.
I hope having these and other scanlations will get folk interested in the history of Dutch comics.  For insights, try this,
https://www.lambiek.net/dutchcomics/1945.htm

The tiny beeldromans intrigue me and I've seen a lot in comic shops in the Netherlands.
Many of the titles are very wordy in parts, as you can see reading the Pimpernel.  It does slow down the storytelling.
In passing, Fulgor might have originally been an Italian strip.  I need to check that. It's been reprinted in Germany.
"I'm not telling, he, he"


Thanks for that link, Paw Broon. I've never heard of beeldromans before, and it's great that we have 'The 2nd Pimpernel' as an example. A shame that a lot were burned. They would be a great insight into the times. They put me in mind of some of the zine comics that are often homemade and distributed at zine fairs and some bookstores. My local book exchange has a small zine library and people occasionally put homemade comics there.

Cheers

QQ
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 05:37:15 AM by Quirky Quokka »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2024, 05:35:00 AM »

The 2nd Pimpernel

Thanks again for everyone involved in putting this together.

I was going to ask about the cover, as it doesn't seem very fancy compared to a lot of comics that were around at the time. But after reading Robb's intro again and the article that Paw alerted us to, I see now that these were small little comics affected by the paper shortages after WWII, so that makes sense.

I enjoyed the art throughout. Although the black and white panels may have been the result of shortages, I think it works for this story, and reminds me of some of the Australian comics from the same era that were also affected by paper shortages and costs during and post-war. Though the art does of course have more of a European sensibility. I liked the quirky features of some of the characters (e.g., the facial expressions of Vierling at times). Though I did wonder how he managed to effortlessly jump over the fence that was considerably taller than he was (Panels 28-29). I also liked the way the female Mr Rank was drawn.

I notice that the panels are numbered. Would they have only had one panel per page?  If they had four panels per page, that would have made it a bit hard to read the text, as some parts are pretty wordy. Though the paperback-sized Archie Digest still does it that way today. Although this is Issue 1, I feel like we're coming in part-way through the story. On Panels 23-26, a fair bit of backstory is given to catch us up with the case. (Also, in Panel 23, it mentions Anne Goedstra and that she's probably from Friesland. But only men are mentioned after that. Just wondering if there's a typo there, as that threw me to start with. I was wondering why she wasn't mentioend again.) I thought it was interesting that the 2nd Pimpernel is someone that the Commissioner thinks should be rendered harmless at all costs, presumably because he's the bad guy. Yet all is not as it seems and he turns out to be the good guy. Or at least I think he is at this stage  :D

It's an interesting turn of events that someone is trying to gain control of the so-called 'war industries' of steel, oil, atomic and chemical industries for their own presumably nefarious reasons. Given that it's 1947, it's interesting to see another perspective of what those post-war years might entail. I'll be interested to see how the story develops.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2024, 08:42:47 AM »


The 2nd Pimpernel

Thanks again for everyone involved in putting this together.

I was going to ask about the cover, as it doesn't seem very fancy compared to a lot of comics that were around at the time. But after reading Robb's intro again and the article that Paw alerted us to,
(1)  I see now that these were small little comics affected by the paper shortages after WWII, so that makes sense.

I enjoyed the art throughout. (2)  Although the black and white panels may have been the result of shortages, I think it works for this story, and reminds me of some of the Australian comics from the same era that were also affected by paper shortages and costs during and post-war. Though the art does of course have more of a European sensibility. I liked the quirky features of some of the characters (e.g., the facial expressions of Vierling at times).

(3)  Though I did wonder how he managed to effortlessly jump over the fence that was considerably taller than he was (Panels 28-29). I also liked the way the female Mr Rank was drawn.

(4)  I notice that the panels are numbered. Would they have only had one panel per page?  If they had four panels per page, that would have made it a bit hard to read the text, as some parts are pretty wordy. Though the paperback-sized Archie Digest still does it that way today.

(5)  Although this is Issue 1, I feel like we're coming in part-way through the story. On Panels 23-26, a fair bit of backstory is given to catch us up with the case.

(6) (Also, in Panel 23, it mentions Anne Goedstra and that she's probably from Friesland. But only men are mentioned after that. Just wondering if there's a typo there, as that threw me to start with. I was wondering why she wasn't mentioned again.)

(7)  I thought it was interesting that the 2nd Pimpernel is someone that the Commissioner thinks should be rendered harmless at all costs, presumably because he's the bad guy. Yet all is not as it seems and he turns out to be the good guy. Or at least I think he is at this stage  :D

(8)  It's an interesting turn of events that someone is trying to gain control of the so-called 'war industries' of steel, oil, atomic and chemical industries for their own presumably nefarious reasons. Given that it's 1947, it's interesting to see another perspective of what those post-war years might entail. I'll be interested to see how the story develops.

Cheers
QQ


Thanks for your perceptive comments, QQ.  Part of the benefits of our particular mix of Reading Group members is that we have representatives of people who grew up in different eras reading comics in various different countries even on different continents.  And each of us knows about the comic book industry in our country (or countries) and can provide insight into what and why things were happening regarding the style, formats, operations of publishers, and conditions among the readers. 

(1)  Yes, the book's small size was due to the paper shortage that started during The War, and continued for a few years afterward. 

(2)  The choice of black and white was due to the high cost of colour printing, and probably a lack of working printer machines (and colour stock as well).  But, in reality, even had The War not occurred, the small readership caused by a small national population and even smaller foreign (Flemish and Afrikaans) potential markets limited most comic books to being printed in black and white (similar to "The Canadian Whites", most Australian, British, and Continental European comic books during the 1940s) regardless of the War restrictions or unusual wartime economies, and war-ravaged economies.  The Germans took everything of any value out of The Netherlands when they started leaving in late 1944 and early 1945 (including most of the food).  The country's economy was in shambles.  People had no money for even comic books.  So circulations were very small.

(3)  Having been in such a situation in my youth, I suspect that Vierling (in a picture between 28 and 29 that was not drawn) leaps with outreached hands to the top of the wall, and once they land on the wall's lip, he pulls himself up, and in 29, vaults forward to land in a "faceplant" on the stone yard's hard floor, perhaps breaking his jaw, or his two wrists, trying to break his fall.  In real life, he would have pull himself to the top, and crouched with his legs bent under him, shoes flat on the wall's top, and carefully pull his legs forward, to sit on top.  Then, he could drop down to the stone floor, feet first, his legs and feet taking the shock, without injury.  Vaulting over the wall without knowing what is on the other side could result even in accidental death from being skewered on a sharp ornamental piece sticking up from outside furniture, or a piece of machinery, or garden tool. 

(4) Clearly, based on optimum size of drawing the drawings needed, as well as printing the text, Author/artist Praamsma (like Anne Goedstra, a West Frisian) drew each panel on a whole single page (thus the individual panel numbers).  Personally, I think Praamsma self published this book alone, before Amsterdam publisher, W. A. Polder, picked it up and published it professionally, perhaps in a regular anthology magazine (explaining why the story starts on Page 31).  It was likely the second story in that Polder magazine issue.  The Beeldroman that Paw bought was likely a reprint made from photos taken from the magazine, many years later, marketed towards (or at the behest of) The Dutch nostalgic comic collectors' scene (in the 1970s or 1980s?).

(5)  Yes the author is filling the reader in on too much that happened in this story, all of which we don't get to see.  That certainly is bad form, given that comics stories are a form of storytelling that was invented to marry the telling of the story in text form, with showing dialogue coming out of the characters' mouths, and the accompanying drawings showing the reader what is happening.  Just describing all the action in text alone defeats that purpose, and what we comics fans love most about comics.  It may be that before he published it, the author had included details on those activities of the villainous businessmen BEFORE having Vierling look through his case's police dossiers, but decided that he didn't want the villains to be focused upon too much so early in the saga, because he wanted The Pimpernel and Inspector Vierling to be much more important.  And maybe he though that switching scenes back-and-forth from the villains to Vierling might be too confusing, especially when the ultimate hero, The Pimpernel, is out of the story so much (and that would exacerbate that problem).  But, I agree with you that the catch-up page 37 is,  as Grahame Chapman said so often, "dreadfully dull and boring".

(6). Yes, I found the author's phrasing there very awkward, as if he started with an idea, forgot what he was going to say, and just started on another idea in mid stream.  It still makes sense the way it is: He mentions that 3 bank directors were kidnapped, the names of 2 men, and adds the woman Anne Goedstra as the third.  He makes a special comment about her, that he'd bet she is from Friesland.  That is a little joke to himself, because Goedstra is a Frisian name, as is his own, (Praamsma).  As to Friesland, he refers actually to West Friesland, which is a Province of The Netherlands, where 80% of The Netherlands' Frisians live, and it is officially bi-lingual.  There are many Frieslanders who speak Frisian a lot more than Dutch.  It is the second official language of The Netherlands.  The Frisians occupied the whole country first, and The Riparian Franks settled their later, mixing with The Frisians, to form The Dutch people.  So, the former are a proud, minority, who staunchly hold onto their language and customs.  So the author wanted to make that little "joke' as a highlight to indicate he has a sense of humour, and as a tip of the hat to any Frisian readers.  Our Donald Duck Weekly published several special issues in Frisian (only sold in West Friesland, with the corresponding Dutch Language issues having all stories with Disney characters visiting that province, and learning about their history and culture, and with information pages covering those topics.

(7) Yes, The Police think The Pimpernel is an agitator disturbing public peace, and pitting groups of people against others, and they suspect (though not yet sure) that he is committing crimes.  By the end of this story, we readers are not supposed to know whether Vierling or The Pimpernel is the hero, and we've been given hints that The Pimpernel is helping people, but we should be curious to read the entire saga before finding out if he is the main hero.

(8} Yes, it is also interesting to wonder about whether or not a cartel of war industry leaders could dare to try to start World War III just to fill their pocketbooks and bank vaults.  A very scary thought, given that we know that most wars were fought over economics issues.  Certainly the military is a primary cog in the economies of USA, Russia, and China, and maybe the secondary World powers, as well.  And The World's current wars are being driven by economics in some way,

« Last Edit: May 03, 2024, 08:05:04 AM by Robb_K »
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2024, 01:14:14 PM »

Re. the panels per page.  I've done some digging and that plus my memory of the originals I saw in Dutch comic shops lets me say that the 2nd Pimpernel book we're discussing is a reprint and a bigger format than the original.  The original had one panel per page in a cigarette size comic. Some beeldromans had 2 or 3 panels per tiny page.  Lex Brand for instance, but in a slightly larger format.
The book we're on now is not even the first reprint, as I now recall seeing a reprint -in the shop in Delft - which was 1 panel per page.  So our version is a construct which shrinks the number of pages by using 4 panels per page.
Robb, I'm not sure about Praamsma self publishing as I think, but can't prove it, that the original publication of this book had Polder listed as publisher.  Certainly, our book is a construct using pages from a later collection.
I'll keep digging but there is so little info available.  Robb, if you were a member of an online Dutch comics fans group, you could ask.
By the way, Lambiek mention Mazure and Dick Bos but suggests that lesser talents did other titles, for instance Georges Mazure on Spot Morton. However, I've chatted with people in comic shops who think that Alfred's brother, Georges Mazure is the better artist. But as we have no examples of Spot Morton, we wont be able to decide.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2024, 05:29:21 PM »


Re. the panels per page.  I've done some digging and that plus my memory of the originals I saw in Dutch comic shops lets me say that the 2nd Pimpernel book we're discussing is a reprint and a bigger format than the original.  The original had one panel per page in a cigarette size comic. Some beeldromans had 2 or 3 panels per tiny page.  Lex Brand for instance, but in a slightly larger format.
The book we're on now is not even the first reprint, as I now recall seeing a reprint -in the shop in Delft - which was 1 panel per page.  So our version is a construct which shrinks the number of pages by using 4 panels per page.
Robb, I'm not sure about Praamsma self publishing as I think, but can't prove it, that the original publication of this book had Polder listed as publisher.  Certainly, our book is a construct using pages from a later collection.
I'll keep digging but there is so little info available.  Robb, if you were a member of an online Dutch comics fans group, you could ask.
By the way, Lambiek mention Mazure and Dick Bos but suggests that lesser talents did other titles, for instance Georges Mazure on Spot Morton. However, I've chatted with people in comic shops who think that Alfred's brother, Georges Mazure is the better artist. But as we have no examples of Spot Morton, we wont be able to decide.


Thanks Paw, for this information.   Yes, it was clear from the scale of text printing and size of drawing and thickness of the lines that Praamsma drew it on single pages, and from the second set of page numbers, that this Polder version was a late re-printing in the middle of a book with other features.  It would be interesting to know what publication it is, and what other stories and features were included in it. 

Yes, I'm a member of a Dutch comic book forum, but it is exclusively a Disney Comics forum , that is now almost dead, and whose members are only interested in animation-based funny animal and cartoony comedy other than Disney, and mainly 1970s and newer material.  So they'd be no help in that regard.  Also, virtually ALL their currently active members are ages 30 and below. 

I am familiar with the cigarette-sized comics from the '40s.  I hadn't realised that "De Moker", "Bob Crack" and this series' books were originally that small size.  I had thought that these books were reprints, a little smaller than "digest size", - the size listed on your uploads of about 5 inches by 3 & 3/4 inches, making them quite a bit larger than the tiny wallet-sized originals.

It will also be interesting to learn about the Italian horizontal mini-books, and in which countries they were reprinted.

About Lambiek's Comiclopedia.....  much of that information was compiled for the shop's owner, who had become to busy to continue it by himself, alone, by his assistant, Bas Schuddeboom, who was one of my editors at Disney.  Lambiek was the first comic book shop I ever found; and I used to go there once a week in the 1970s. 

I've been curious as to which shops you frequented in The Netherlands, and where you found the Beeldroman reprints.  My favourite shops were: "Snoek" in Amsterdam noord (harbour area), "Lambiek", "Robbedoes", "Kaptein Rob" and "Comics Wereld" in Amsterdam, "Panda", "Walk In", and "Haagse Stripshop" in Den Haag, "Dumpie" and "Leidse Stripshop" in Leiden,  "Piet Snot" in Utrecht, "Dik Bos" and  "Stripwerk" in Rotterdam, "Sjors" in Dordrecht, and "Bul Super" in Delft, Ambrosius in Groningen, and "Eppo" in Eindhoven.  I did drawing signings and gave workshops at Eppo in Eindhoven with colleagues from Oberon and VNU (Dutch Disney Comics).  Here's an advert for one of them:

« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 05:42:48 PM by Robb_K »
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2024, 07:16:43 PM »

Oh dear Robb. You got me there as I can't remember the names of the shops.  Definitely Snoek and a couple of others in Amsterdam.  I mentioned one in Delft and there's a great shop in Hoorn where I bought quite a pile of landscapes - Erik de Noorman, Kaptein Rob, Aram and other titles.  I'm a fan of the art and they're reprints of newspaper strips.  Actually, it can be cheaper to search out the Belgian versions, poorer quality paper, slightly bigger but cheaper.
I've visited a couple of shops in Den Haag and both of the ones you list in Leiden.
Lovely ad for your workshop.
The Italian strisce are interesting but it's confusing figuring out whether some of them were originally Italian as Spain also had some.  The Dutch title like Jan Stavast and Robbie, were they not Dutch originals?  I haven't a clue.  There's a publisher in Germany who a number of years ago started reprinting piccolos but I always thought they were originally German. Sigurd and Nick.
As far as I know none of them were translated for the British market.  We had that format but they were designed for young children - Enid Blyton and similar.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2024, 08:36:34 PM »


Oh dear Robb. You got me there as I can't remember the names of the shops.  Definitely Snoek and a couple of others in Amsterdam.  I mentioned one in Delft and (1) there's a great shop in Hoorn where I bought quite a pile of landscapes - Erik de Noorman, Kaptein Rob, Aram and other titles.  I'm a fan of the art and they're reprints of newspaper strips.  Actually, it can be cheaper to search out the Belgian versions, poorer quality paper, slightly bigger but cheaper.
I've visited a couple of shops in Den Haag and both of the ones you list in Leiden.
Lovely ad for your workshop.
The Italian strisce are interesting but it's confusing figuring out whether some of them were originally Italian as Spain also had some.  The Dutch title like (2) Jan Stavast and Robbie, were they not Dutch originals?  I haven't a clue.  (3) There's a publisher in Germany who a number of years ago started reprinting piccolos but I always thought they were originally German.  (4) Sigurd and Nick.
As far as I know none of them were translated for the British market.  We had that format but they were designed for young children - Enid Blyton and similar.

(1) My village is only about 10 km from the centre of Hoorn.  I remember a comics shop there, but it was nothing special, and never had anything I wanted to buy. 

(2) Jan Stavast was drawn by Pedrazza; but I think a Dutch publisher may have commissioned him to draw it. 

(3) German Ditmar published Akim, Tibor, Sigurd, and several other series, reprinted in The Netherlands. 

(4) Sigurd was a staple of The German GA comic book industry, drawn by Hans Rudi Wäscher.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 03:49:14 PM by Robb_K »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2024, 07:40:34 AM »



(6). Yes, I found the author's phrasing there very awkward, as if he started with an idea, forgot what he was going to say, and just started on another idea in mid stream.  It still makes sense the way it is: He mentions that 3 bank directors were kidnapped, the names of 2 men, and adds the woman Anne Goedstra as the third.  He makes a special comment about her, that he'd bet she is from Friesland.  That is a little joke to himself, because Goedstra is a Frisian name, as is his own, (Praamsma).  As to Friesland, he refers actually to West Friesland, which is a Province of The Netherlands, where 80% of The Netherlands' Frisians live, and it is officially bi-lingual.  There are many Frieslanders who speak Frisian a lot more than Dutch.  It is the second official language of The Netherlands.  The Frisians occupied the whole country first, and The Riparian Franks settled their later, mixing with The Frisians, to form The Dutch people.  So, the former are a proud, minority, who staunchly hold onto their language and customs.  So the author wanted to make that little "joke' as a highlight to indicate he has a sense of humour, and as a tip of the hat to any Frisian readers.  Our Donald Duck Weekly published several special issues in Frisian (only sold in West Friesland, with the corresponding Dutch Language issues having all stories with Disney characters visiting that province, and learning about their history and culture, and with information pages covering those topics.



Thanks for that extra info, Robb, and for your other comments in that reply. I know very little European history, and even less about the Netherlands apart from what I've read about people hiding Jews during the war (e.g., Anne Frank's diary and books by Corrie Ten Boom). I appreciate the time you took to explain everything.

Cheers

QQ
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2024, 06:25:38 AM »

The Sledgehammer

This was another interesting one, like a modern-day Robin Hood in which the Sledgehammer takes back the ill-gotten gains of the corrupt bank manager and gives it back to the little people who lost it.

The idea of the underground network of the Sledgehammer and his associates is reminiscent of the French underground during the war. I don't know much about the history of post-war France. Did some of those groups keep operating beyond the war? In any case, I guess there were still lots of wrongs to put right, as indeed there are today.

The story is largely told through narration boxes, but it was done in a fairly entertaining and action-packed style. I did wonder why the Sledgehammer made it difficult for himself by announcing what time he was going to break into the safe, but then I guess that made for more drama and intrigue to see how he would carry out his plan with all the police in attendance. I guess that certainly sent a message to the bank manager and anyone else who was diddling people out of their money.

The art was quite good, with a fitting action-packed conclusion against the backdrop of the Eiffel Tower. Though I did wonder why the Sledgehammer, who is presumably a good guy, used such excessive force with the unwitting porter and elevator boy at the Eiffel Tower.

Still, an entertaining read and an interesting slice of life from the time. Also interesting to have a Dutch comic set in France.

Cheers

QQ

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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2024, 04:42:42 PM »


The Sledgehammer

This was another interesting one, like a modern-day Robin Hood in which the Sledgehammer takes back the ill-gotten gains of the corrupt bank manager and gives it back to the little people who lost it.

(1)  The idea of the underground network of the Sledgehammer and his associates is reminiscent of the French underground during the war. I don't know much about the history of post-war France. Did some of those groups keep operating beyond the war? In any case, I guess there were still lots of wrongs to put right, as indeed there are today.

The story is largely told through narration boxes, but it was done in a fairly entertaining and action-packed style. (2)  I did wonder why the Sledgehammer made it difficult for himself by announcing what time he was going to break into the safe, but then I guess that made for more drama and intrigue to see how he would carry out his plan with all the police in attendance. I guess that certainly sent a message to the bank manager and anyone else who was diddling people out of their money.

The art was quite good, with (3)  a fitting action-packed conclusion against the backdrop of the Eiffel Tower. Though (4) I did wonder why the Sledgehammer, who is presumably a good guy, used such excessive force with the unwitting porter and elevator boy at the Eiffel Tower.

Still, an entertaining read and an interesting slice of life from the time. Also (5)  Interesting to have a Dutch comic set in France.
Cheers
QQ 


(1)  I don't know if you are just making a tongue-in-cheek subtle joke here.  But, as far as I know, the French underground didn't continue to operate in Paris after that city was liberated in August 1944.  However, it is very possible that the author/artist, Hans Ducro, wanted to imply that De Moker didn't just become a crusader for The Public against criminals and government graft directly after The War, but that he learned his "trade" as a freedom fighter for The FFI (French Underground), during France's 4 years of German military Occupation.

(2)   It seems obvious that this entire story was inspired by De Moker's having to fight The Paris Police Force to return The ordinary People's hard-earned, badly-needed money, and to escape from them in a dramatic, last-second, completely unexpected rescue from the very top of the world-known European icon building, The Eiffel Tower.  That may be based, in part, by making his heroic deed seem even more difficult, by having the powerful (criminal) Bank Consortium Director in bed with Paris' Police Department.

(3)   Yes, having the dramatic escape, into the sky, from the tip top of that World icon needle building was likely the inspiration for, and main reason for the existence of this story.  It is clear that Ducro's method of thinking up stories for his masked mystery-man crusader for The People against organised crime and political graft, was to imagine dramatic escapes from the corrupt police, or dramatic round-ups of the criminal gangs; and then Ducro would work backwards from the ending, to "discover" what events needed to be used to develop the story's plot path.

(4). Yes, it's nasty that the innocent Porter on The Eiffel Tower (who had no part in The Bankers' crimes nor The Police Force's complicity in general graft committed by The Corporate Leaders, in cahoots with The Police) had to get beat up by De Moker, (Crusader for the People's rights and protection).  Unfortunately, De Moker probably did that to keep up the pretence that he is an ordinary criminal, and dangerous lawbreaker.  He probably did that so the powerful corrupt politicians, banker syndicate, and other powerful people wouldn't get panicky that he, as a successful crusader for The Public's safety and welfare, against the big money and political power centres' interests, and so have the Police put all their resources into an all-in effort to capture him.  Operating at their current, half-assed, incompetent level, he can continue to outwit them and defeat them.  An all-out "War' against him (and his small band of 'helper' would likely send him into hiding, and likely render him ineffective.

(5)   ALL of De Moker's stories were set in France.  Clearly, he was a French character,  As far as I know, Ducro was born in the Netherlands, and he only worked for Dutch publishers.  However, the surname "Ducro" sounds a LOT more like a French word and surname than a Dutch one.  Clearly, Hans had a lot of knowledge of France, and its society and customs, and, possibly, its criminal ties of banking to politics and graft in those areas.  So, maybe France was a better setting for a masked mystery man-crusader for The People against crime and graft, and was less embarrassing for him to put foreign politicians and leading bankers in a bad light, than being suspected of implying that his own country's leaders were corrupt?  OR, perhaps his own family had migrated from French Flanders to Belgium and then, The Netherlands, and he still had family in France, visited them regularly, and knew that country fairly well.  Ducro's other comics were all set in The Netherlands.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2024, 09:37:25 PM by Robb_K »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2024, 01:41:19 AM »



The Sledgehammer

(1)  The idea of the underground network of the Sledgehammer and his associates is reminiscent of the French underground during the war. I don't know much about the history of post-war France. Did some of those groups keep operating beyond the war? In any case, I guess there were still lots of wrongs to put right, as indeed there are today.


(1)  I don't know if you are just making a tongue-in-cheek subtle joke here.  But, as far as I know, the French underground didn't continue to operate in Paris after that city was liberated in August 1944.  However, it is very possible that the author/artist, Hans Ducro, wanted to imply that De Moker didn't just become a crusader for The Public against criminals and government graft directly after The War, but that he learned his "trade" as a freedom fighter for The FFI (French Underground), during France's 4 years of German military Occupation.



Thanks for that, Robb. I wasn't meaning it as a joke, but I probably didn't phrase it well. I know the French Underground would have officially ended with the liberation of France, but I was wondering if there might have still been some underground groups or cells that were still fighting injustice post-war. As you say, the author may have wanted to imply that De Moker learned his trade as a freedom fighter. There would, of course, have been many who learned all sorts of skills during that time. Although the end of war was certainly a cause for celebration, I wonder if some may have found it hard to go back to ordinary life after all of the 'exciting' or at least adventurous things they'd done during the war.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2024, 03:57:03 AM »




The Sledgehammer

(1)  The idea of the underground network of the Sledgehammer and his associates is reminiscent of the French underground during the war. I don't know much about the history of post-war France. Did some of those groups keep operating beyond the war? In any case, I guess there were still lots of wrongs to put right, as indeed there are today.


(1)  I don't know if you are just making a tongue-in-cheek subtle joke here.  But, as far as I know, the French underground didn't continue to operate in Paris after that city was liberated in August 1944.  However, it is very possible that the author/artist, Hans Ducro, wanted to imply that De Moker didn't just become a crusader for The Public against criminals and government graft directly after The War, but that he learned his "trade" as a freedom fighter for The FFI (French Underground), during France's 4 years of German military Occupation.



Thanks for that, Robb. I wasn't meaning it as a joke, but I probably didn't phrase it well. I know the French Underground would have officially ended with the liberation of France, but I was wondering if there might have still been some underground groups or cells that were still fighting injustice post-war. As you say, the author may have wanted to imply that De Moker learned his trade as a freedom fighter. There would, of course, have been many who learned all sorts of skills during that time. Although the end of war was certainly a cause for celebration, I wonder if some may have found it hard to go back to ordinary life after all of the 'exciting' or at least adventurous things they'd done during the war.
Cheers
QQ


Well, a large amount of the military-aged FFI operatives joined the French 1st Army, which was quickly raised starting in August 1944, when France, under Charles De Gaulle, raised a new army to join USA. UK, and Canada on the new Western Front on Germany's western borders.  Most of that group joined as regular soldiers.  But, I imagine that the best trained of them joined The French Army's Special forces divisions as instructors, or officers (after some training).  After The War, I imagine the most adventurous of them, who enjoyed combat, became Globetrotting soldiers of fortune, as mercenaries for foreign governments, or training other countries' military in tactics of special forces or espionage.  I know that a significant amount of them joined police forces' detective units, and a few joined France's National Intelligence Offices to train operatives, or become operatives.  Perhaps a few of them became "industrial spies".  The Cold War started virtually immediately after The German surrender.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2024, 10:16:29 PM »

The Second Pimpernel #1

A bit wordy, although I'm assuming that started with the original dialogue and Robb didn't go overboard with the translation.

A nice genial atmosphere, although thinking about some of the stuff going on, kidnappings, threatening people, a large conspiracy of evil people, perhaps a little too nice and genial, but this is hardly the first Golden Age comic to do that. Heck, even some murder mysteries are like that.

I did find the continual referring to Miss Rank as Mr. Rank odd. The first time the Pimpernal did it, I assumed it was a joke, but afterward it was treated as if it was normal.


The Sledgehammer #1

I want to be your... aaaah! Just when I got that song out of my head!  ;)

Is it just me or is it very vague on what crime Dumas has actually done? Somehow he has been successful while small businesses are on the verge of failure, but what illegal actions he's done is unknown. One could argue that Dumas' “crime” was simply being successful while others failed.

So will insurance reimburse Dumas' stolen money? Will the people who got their money back be punished for suddenly receiving cash from an unknown source, possibly even being charged with being in cahoots with the thief of Dumas' money?


Fulgor #7

Unintentionally funny to read how the scientists are unable to do anything about the approaching asteroid. Even at the time you'd have thought someone would have thought about using rockets and lasers against the asteroid.

Why does the weapon on the flying saucer look so much like a machine gun?

Otherwise a nice, exciting little sci-fi adventure.
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2024, 12:36:30 AM »

Great selections, Robb, and I wish I could have helped when you asked me.

PIMPERNEL and SLEDGEHAMMER reminded me of manga formats, and I wish that the FULGOR format had caught on over here. I always liked the BATMAN and STEVE CANYON dailies and think it would have been an ideal format for them.

These are the first Dutch comics I’ve read and I was really impressed.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2024, 08:23:02 AM »


The Second Pimpernel #1

(1)  A bit wordy, although I'm assuming that started with the original dialogue and Robb didn't go overboard with the translation.

(2) A nice genial atmosphere, although thinking about some of the stuff going on, kidnappings, threatening people, a large conspiracy of evil people, perhaps a little too nice and genial, but this is hardly the first Golden Age comic to do that. Heck, even some murder mysteries are like that.

(3) I did find the continual referring to Miss Rank as Mr. Rank odd. The first time the Pimpernal did it, I assumed it was a joke, but afterward it was treated as if it was normal.


The Sledgehammer #1

(4) I want to be your... aaaah! Just when I got that song out of my head!  ;)

(5) Is it just me or is it very vague on what crime Dumas has actually done? Somehow he has been successful while small businesses are on the verge of failure, but what illegal actions he's done is unknown. One could argue that Dumas' “crime” was simply being successful while others failed.

(6) So will insurance reimburse Dumas' stolen money? Will the people who got their money back be punished for suddenly receiving cash from an unknown source, possibly even being charged with being in cahoots with the thief of Dumas' money?


Fulgor #7

(7) Unintentionally funny to read how the scientists are unable to do anything about the approaching asteroid. Even at the time you'd have thought someone would have thought about using rockets and lasers against the asteroid.

Why does the weapon on the flying saucer look so much like a machine gun?

Otherwise a nice, exciting little sci-fi adventure.


(1) I didn't translate it word for word ver batim, as despite Dutch being the closest major language to English (only Frisian is closer), Dutch and English have significant differences in logic and sense.  I used wording in English that is the way English speakers would express the exact meaning of what the characters and the narrator wanted to convey.  You can look at the Dutch and English versions and see that my version is probably 30% shorter in number of words and letters.  At Dutch Disney, for translating English or American comics, we have a standard size difference in word balloons of 20% smaller than our Dutch language balloons.  German is very wordy, we use 15 to 20 more space for translating Dutch to German. 
As there was wayyyyy too much text in this story, I used the most concise way of putting the exact meaning into English words.  There were several Dutch idiomatic phrases that wouldn't make any sense to an English speaker.  So, I used an English phrase that meant something very similar in American/Canadian idiom during the late 1940s (lucky I was already around then, to give authenticity to this translation).  When there were no appropriate intact, regularly used equivalent phrases, I merely used wording that was used in English speaking North America at that time, to convey what the character was trying to express.

(2). Yes, I too, thought the extortionist kidnappers seemed much too nice to their future victims, and the narrator and inspector Vierling's reading the crime dossiers told us the would-be victims had accompanied their "captors", willingly.

(3)  I thought it strange, too.  We know that her father, Mr. Rank, ran the company.  When he died suddenly, his eldest daughter had to take over, and prevent her father's rival company owner from taking over his (now her) business.  So, she chose to use her father's name (apparently, at first, to keep rival industry leaders from learning that he died, until she could get the business on a sound footing to avoid a forced sale.  The author never told us why she continued to use his name after word of her father's death became public knowledge.  I thought it was funny that even her sister referred to her as "Mr. Rank".

(4)  Which song do you want to get out of your head, and what does it have to do with this story???

(5) The author never explained in detail how the extremely wealthy bank consortium Director "stole" the life savings of so many ordinary people.  I assumed it was some form of usury on personal or real estate loans (illegal interest rates and late payment penalties, and maybe also illegal collateral confiscations).

(6)  I also wondered about The Pimpernel being thought of as a wanted criminal by the police, and windfall additions to so many people's bank accounts looking suspicious.  But, really these were the equivalents of some hundreds to a few thousand in today's Euros for most of the people.  They wouldn't have been a red flag to their banks to notify the police.  They would have been in a lot of different banks, and no one person at those banks would have been looking at working-class individuals' accounts.  And there were no computers back then.  As for Insurance, I imagine that it WOULD have been insured, and re-imbursed by the insurance company IF the Director would report it, knowing that such a claim might make his banks theft insurance premium rise enough that it would cost him more than the amount lost, in the long run. 

(7)  This issue doesn't mention the year of this adventure.  Perhaps the first issue does.  But, we can conclude that it is after at least 2,200 or more, given that they have spaceships flying regularly to Mars.  So, one would think that by that time, scientists would have developed technology to deflect asteroids' paths to save The Earth from such potential impact disasters that would cause Worldwide catastrophes similar to the comet impact that brought on a major climate change that brought about the mass animal and plant species extinction of 66 million years ago.
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2024, 08:32:51 AM »

De Moker.  I am surprised all over again at how much this looks like a story of Diabolik.  When I looked at the original years ago - read is wrong as I could only get a vague idea of what was going on - theDiabolik resemblance occurred to me. Now, paying more attention to the book as a whole, the resemblance is clearer.  Okay, De Moker pre- dates Diabolik and Diabolik is an out and out criminal, well evil personified at the start of his career, but later there are some adventures where Diabolik looks like De Moker, back pack and all.
The device of sending a warning about what and when the robbery will, occur is one which appears in many stories of second storey men.  Johnston McCulley used it.
The story telling is a bit clunky at times but no worse than in many comics of the period from other countries.  Same with the art which is competent but a bit careless at times, which is comparable to some comics from the period. But the art is good enough to generate a bit of excitement  and there are some good hairbreadth escapes.  It's all a bit too wordy, a flaw that was present in many beeldromans.
Considering the amount of explanation in dialogue boxes as well as speech balloons,  and this is one of my pet interests, I can't not see comparisons with the  early British strips which combined a text box above or below each panel with word balloons in the panel.  At least with beeldromans, it's not as structured and not as staid.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2024, 09:59:19 AM »


De Moker.  I am surprised all over again at how much this looks like a story of Diabolik.  When I looked at the original years ago - read is wrong as I could only get a vague idea of what was going on - theDiabolik resemblance occurred to me. Now, paying more attention to the book as a whole, the resemblance is clearer.  Okay, De Moker pre- dates Diabolik and Diabolik is an out and out criminal, well evil personified at the start of his career, but later there are some adventures where Diabolik looks like De Moker, back pack and all.
The device of sending a warning about what and when the robbery will, occur is one which appears in many stories of second storey men.  Johnston McCulley used it.
The story telling is a bit clunky at times but no worse than in many comics of the period from other countries.  Same with the art which is competent but a bit careless at times, which is comparable to some comics from the period. But the art is good enough to generate a bit of excitement  and there are some good hairbreadth escapes.  It's all a bit too wordy, a flaw that was present in many beeldromans.
Considering the amount of explanation in dialogue boxes as well as speech balloons,  and this is one of my pet interests, I can't not see comparisons with the  early British strips which combined a text box above or below each panel with word balloons in the panel.  At least with beeldromans, it's not as structured and not as staid.

That is my pet peeve with "De Moker", "Bob Crack", and "De Tweede Pimpernel" - MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, TOO MUCH narrative AND dialog!  And the WORST thing about that is, that in the Beeldromans (especially "De Moker", the author often REPEATED the same information in the dialogue balloons in the artwork, as the reader read just above it in the page's introduction narrative.  That is utterly ridiculous!  The whole idea of telling stories in comics format is to combine (interweave or blend) artwork and text for a mixed experience of the reader seeing some highlights of the story's action and the basic settings, and then imagining what the text describes, as there is not enough room to show every detail of what happens in the limited room for artwork.  Unlike a film, a comic strip, comic book, or graphic novel has limited room to display artwork, and would cost too much to pay artists to draw every bit of action in anything remotely like real time.  So space for artwork, and even text is precious.  Eating up precious room for text by duplicating paragraphs or even just a few sentences is a disaster, when the storyteller is always saddled with the task of needing to be extremely economical with his or her wording and choosing what to draw, and even the most economical artist or writer has to leave out things he'd want to include.  I remember my main finishing artist partner had only one page for a regular magazine cartoon strip, to tell a full story each month.  He used to divide that page into a ridiculous number of odd-shaped panels (often to 13 or 14) to fit in as much action and dialogue as he could, with word balloons and characters limbs always bleeding well out over the page's (panels') outer margins.  His stories felt like 6 pages worth.  He was really economical with both his dialogues and drawings to add in as much as possible. 

Duplicating text with exactly what is shown in art is a veritable SIN!!  Duplicating narrative text with dialogue text is punishable by instant firing!!!
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2024, 10:02:44 PM »

(3)  I thought it strange, too.  We know that her father, Mr. Rank, ran the company.  When he died suddenly, his eldest daughter had to take over, and prevent her father's rival company owner from taking over his (now her) business.  So, she chose to use her father's name (apparently, at first, to keep rival industry leaders from learning that he died, until she could get the business on a sound footing to avoid a forced sale.  The author never told us why she continued to use his name after word of her father's death became public knowledge.  I thought it was funny that even her sister referred to her as "Mr. Rank".

Now I'm wondering if it was a local tradition to refer to the head of a company as Mr. [whatever], at the time? Or maybe the original writer found it amusing?

(4)  Which song do you want to get out of your head, and what does it have to do with this story???

Sledgehammer by Peter Gabriel  ;) I actually like the song, but I did think about it more than usual working on the story.  :)

(5) The author never explained in detail how the extremely wealthy bank consortium Director "stole" the life savings of so many ordinary people.  I assumed it was some form of usury on personal or real estate loans (illegal interest rates and late payment penalties, and maybe also illegal collateral confiscations).

So the original writer left it vague and trusted/hoped the readers would be prejudiced against bankers? Well, wouldn't be the first time, I guess.

(7)  This issue doesn't mention the year of this adventure.  Perhaps the first issue does.  But, we can conclude that it is after at least 2,200 or more, given that they have spaceships flying regularly to Mars.  So, one would think that by that time, scientists would have developed technology to deflect asteroids' paths to save The Earth from such potential impact disasters that would cause Worldwide catastrophes similar to the comet impact that brought on a major climate change that brought about the mass animal and plant species extinction of 66 million years ago.

Yeah, although I was looking at it from the idea of what the author would have known at the time. Obviously what we know from the DART mission would be completely unknown to them. The idea of using a laser to move the asteroid by the outgassing might not have been thought up yet. I think a 1970s movie mentioned the possibility (and problems) of blowing up a meteor. Star Trek used 'deflectors' (which, in a way, the hero used, just under a different name.) So the fact that Earth considered themselves helpless indicates that the writer didn't think missiles could be used as they weren't mentioned as a possibility.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2024, 10:27:24 PM »


(3)  I thought it strange, too.  We know that her father, Mr. Rank, ran the company.  When he died suddenly, his eldest daughter had to take over, and prevent her father's rival company owner from taking over his (now her) business.  So, she chose to use her father's name (apparently, at first, to keep rival industry leaders from learning that he died, until she could get the business on a sound footing to avoid a forced sale.  The author never told us why she continued to use his name after word of her father's death became public knowledge.  I thought it was funny that even her sister referred to her as "Mr. Rank".

Now I'm wondering if it was a local tradition to refer to the head of a company as Mr. [whatever], at the time? Or maybe the original writer found it amusing? 


NO!  There was NEVER a local tradition in ANY Province of The Netherlands to refer to the owner of a business as Mr. ("De Heer" or Mijn Heer") EVEN if she is a woman.  Clearly the author wanted to use it as a curiosity in the story, but either forgot to use it, or it was shot down by his editor, and the author forgot to remove it, AND the editor missed it in his last review before it went to print.  That shows that these publications were slapped together in haste, with quite a bit less professionalism than existed in Europe during the 1960s till today.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group #322-English Scanlations of 3 Dutch GA Comics
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2024, 11:43:15 PM »

SuperScrounge mentioned:

Quote
Sledgehammer by Peter Gabriel  ;) I actually like the song, but I did think about it more than usual working on the story.  :)


I immediately knew which song you were talking about and could picture the film clip in my head. Popular in the era when I was watching lots of music video shows on TV. A great film clip for the time. Now it's in my head. Aarrgghh!!

Cheers

QQ


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