[SuperScrounge]

After making my post on secret origins, I found myself thinking about Golden Age characters who started off with origins and there were more than I realized, but most of them tended to be characters that had some unusual power or gimmick that needed an explanation, Superman, Flash, Hawkman, Johnny Quick, Green Lantern, Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, Captain Marvel, the Spirit, etc.

Costumed crimefighters whose abilities were otherwise normal usually didn't get an origin, although there were exceptions like Wildcat and The Atom.

I guess it boiled down to what the editors and/or writers thought the readers could accept.

[The Australian Panther]

I'm wondering how far back the idea of the origin story goes. I'm thinking the pulps and fictional characters from books. I know there was an origin for the Shadow, but was there one for Doc Savage?   
I don't think Charteris gave 'the Saint' an origin. 

[crashryan]

I read quite a bit of Doc Savage when the Bantam paperbacks were new. There were frequent references to what could be called his origin story, basically a scientist father who trained Clark Jr to be the best in everything. I don't recall the stories going into any greater detail. If there was an explanation of how Monk, Ham, etc came to be his squad, I don't remember it.

[SuperScrounge]

I'm wondering how far back the idea of the origin story goes.

Genesis? 

[Robb_K]

I'm wondering how far back the idea of the origin story goes.

Genesis? 

No! Not even for the first written idea of creation, as the Sumerian story of Enki was probably first written down 2000 years before The Bible's Genesis.  And The Bible's Genesis seems to have been inspired by that, given that it has some of the same EXACT wording.  But the Humans' first having an idea about The Universe's creation was probably several hundred thousand years ago, when complicated language first came about.

[Captain Audio]

Elaborate Neanderthal burials discovered in the middle east suggest belief in an afterlife and gods at least 30,000-40,000 years ago.

An ancient myth of the Blackfoot Indians always held my interest.
It did not tell of a creation but rather the first humans to travel to North America over the North Pole or at least over a ice age ice cap that may have extended further south.
A large tribe traveling across the ice were near starvation when the brothers who led the tribe saw a antler sticking outof the ice. One wrenched the antler looose causing the ice to split and a deep crevasse divided the halves of the tribe. Half went back the way they came the rest traveled on to the far north of North America then wandered south.
Myths, or perhaps traditions is a better word, such as these were carried on by word of mouth till recorded in the 19th and 20th century.

[The Australian Panther]

Well,
these topics often get far away from the original intent. But this takes the record I think.
1/

I'm wondering how far back the idea of the origin story goes.

 
I was, of course talking about the origins of fictional characters.

Genesis? 

Yes, Genesis with a wink! Which is how I took it.
On the subject of human origins, I will simply say, that estimates of antediluvian ages for civilization [ or pretty much anything else really] are entirely subjective and constantly disputed. It's not wise to use them to make definitive statements. I'm tempted to dispute some of those statements, but I will refrain, and get back to the subject on hand!
Cheers!   

[The Australian Panther]

Animal Fables 5
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=75892

Since a great deal has already been discussed re these comics, and how and why they came to exist in the form that they do, I will largely confine myself to talking about the contents.
The cover marks the book as an oddity, in that we have an insect superhero in a 'funny animal' book.
So, to go down another rabbit hole - yes please! - Was this the first 'funny animal' " [insect. actually] superhero, predating superducks and mighty mice?   

Marvel's first super hero, the burning-hot hit known as the Human Torch, seared his way into readers' minds in 1939

So, Firefly was definitely derivitive.
The story; Why should flying insects,[they clearly have wings] need to take a horse and wagion to travel. And are they horse-size insects or insect-size horses? But asking questions like that about this kind of story is pointless. That way lies madness.
So we have a western.
But then we have a completely different story altogether.
Generic and Dull because too obvious.
The Dog and the Bone.
Nicely illustrated and nicely told. Actually, the way he was drawn, I sympathized with the dog.
These were read in school back in the 50's. I wonder if anybody of the last 2 or maybe 3 generations have ever heard of Aesop's fables. They are invaluable object lessons.
Danny Demon
What kind of animal are Danny and Mr Fiend supposed to be?
Goats probably. Danny looks like a cartoon version of PAN.
Compared to this, Harvey's Hot Stuff and Spooky are quite sophisticated works.
So, far all the stories have used a heavy hand to make 'moral and ethical points' but have not been particularly entertaining in doing so.
Comics McCormick
This is a step up in art and also gives a 2 page view of what the artist and writer thought was the social milieu of the average comic book reader. Was it cut short? 
Fat and Slat. One page gags.
Typical for the period.
I think that this kind of strip, two men exchanging one-liners, probably has its antecedents in Vaudeville.
A more modern example is FRANK AND EARNEST.
The Wind and the Sun. You could do a whole book of these fables. PD too. 
Hector the Inspector
Interesting little story. The unique element in the story is the 'naturally!' gag. Predates,'I am Groot!' by decades. 
As I have said before herein, 'there is nothing new under the sun.'
Pretty average for  a 'funny animal' comic for this period. I don't think too many children would be disappointed.       

[Robb_K]

I've said most of what I wanted to say about "Mad Hatter" because my aim in choosing these two books was much more to find out what connection Max Gaines had to the two series, and why "Mad Hatter" used Funny Animal stories from "Animal Fables" ' stash of extra stories.  We found out all the answers to my questions, and found out the owners and editors of O.W. Comics were in way over their heads, and posterity is probably lucky to have 4 Mad Hatter stories to see how even good ideas can be sabotaged by going into a business with creative experience, but very little knowledge of the business end. 

Here is my review of "Animal Fables 5":

I find it interesting that Max Gaines bought this Series from Bill Woolfolk very early in its series run( seemingly just after Issue Number 1 was printed, as The EC logo appeared on Issues #2-7.  And, It is interesting that all the EC issues mention that: "This series is published by the publishers of The Educational Series that uses the Advisory Board below:"  That was included to impress parents, and assure them that this comic book is not only "safe" for young children to read, but has worthwhile  educational content.  That seems ironic, given that Freddy Firefly slugs two different policemen as hard as he can, and commits manslaughter by accidentally causing the death of minor villain, by slugging him very hard, and knocking him out of a moving vehicle, where he gets run over by the vehicle's wheels.  And a schoolteacher in a school for fiends, yanks a young demon painfully, by his ear, for saving a fellow being's life, instead of doing bad deeds. And in "Hector The Inspector, his nemesis, "The Unknown", Master of Evil, vows to murder Hector, and is shown sneaking up behind him, wielding a sharp dagger and making a swift stabbing motion downward, seemingly stabbing the latter in his back, and likely killing him.  Only later, do we find out he stabbed a dummy.  Is all that "recommended "safe" for little children\n, and containing worthwhile educational content?  I suppose the couple short, traditional "Animal Fables" qualify as educational.

Freddy Firefly
Obviously copying "The Human Torch", Freddy Firefly, who still shouts "Flame on!" to activate his flaming power in Mad Hatter1, now shouts "Take Fire", ostensibly to avoid lawsuits.  And, miraculously, or an illogical decision, his flames not only don't burn his own skin, but also not that of the villains he attacks. The slaver ants are certainly hatable villains.  Still, I think it is unusual for a funny Animal comic to have an actual death of a villain.  That's not a problem for me.  But, I think it is fairly unusual for a comic book otherwise seemingly aimed at 4 to 7 year olds.

The Dog and The Bone
Nice artwork! Typical for educational fables.

Danny Demon
I've already mentioned that the fiendish schoolteacher always trying to get Danny to do wrong, bad, hurt people when he doesn't want to or have it in him to do so, will get old fast.  It also is too "preachy' a moral tale, which tries to point out that doing wrong will lead to a bad end, and always doing right makes one better off in the end.  At least this story has the nice, and ironic, ending that Danny finally makes the fiendish teacher happy and proud even if HE, himself was the target of the bad deed.

Comics McCormick Advert
Nothing to review here , as this is just coming attractions for the following month's "Fat & Slat", other than the typical US form of "inclusion" by having a black-faced, white liver-lipped "coloured" step-n-fetchit type character, so African-americans were not left out.

Fat and Slat Gags
A couple one-page poor-man's Vaudeville routines.

The Wind and The Sun
Good art - same as the first fable.

Hector The Inspector
This is another story that seems surprising to be in a comic seemingly aimed at children 4 to 7 years old.  Firstly, the villain, "The Unknown" wants his nemesis, "Hector The Inspector" murdered by his hired thugs, who fail to do that, and decides he will have to do that himself.  He looks quite insane, and dangerous for a young children's book.  And, on top of that, The Unknown looking so wicked in sneaking up behind Hector, wielding a very sharp-looking dagger and driving it downward deep into his prey is something I can't imagine in an Uncle Scrooge comic, which should be considered for ages 4 through 12.  It doesn't really matter that the reader finds out that he stabbed a dummy, and Hector is safe.  I agree that this story idea was copied from a classic pulp and Film Noir detective plot.

Mad Hatter 1
This story is a bit interesting, as Barbara, the romantic interest of Grant Richmond, the alter ego of The Mad Hatter, is ordered by her boss to have a date with The Mad Hatter.  And, on top of that, her boss is that city's crime boss, who, it just so happens, is trying to help the police capture the crime boss.  That has the makings of an excellent story.  But it cannot have those possibilities taken to their full advantage in such a limited number of story pages and panels.  The artwork is fairly ordinary for that period (which, to me means slightly subpar.

Danny Demon
This is basically the same story as the one we read in Animal Fables 1, and, really, all the other Danny Demon stories.  The artwork is decent, but nothing to write home about.  It seems to have been drawn by Woody Gelman, who appears to have drawn all of his series in "Animal Fables" and this book.  I think we see yet ANOTHER grievous error by J.G. Oxten, in the note at the end of this story informing the reader that "Danny Demon" also appears in rival D.C. Comics' "Animal Antics" series (which it most certainly did NOT - much to the delight of Max Gaines!).  That should have read: "Animal FABLES".  How did Co-Publisher, Co-Owner, and Chief Editor, John Oxten, forget that the other series his company planned to publish, and had started to publish (Issue #1), was called "Animal Fables", getting it mixed up with a major rivals' publication, "Animal Antics"  Oxton must have had some severe distraction in his life to make all of those grievous errors that sabotaged his new business, ensuring its demise, almost immediately.

Dogs Are Good Medicine - Text Story
A tear-jerker of an attempted inspirational story.  A psychological drama that is similar to a few 1940s films I have seen, plus an early 1950s film about a famous hypnotist, who had tried to make a young girl, who had successful leg surgery, walk again.

Match Your Wits With The Mad Hatter's
A two-page mystery-quiz, with the tell-tale clue of the man impersonating his identical twin sister, having his "Adam's apple" clearly visible in three different panels, for the amateur detective reader to notice, on the story's second page.

Freddy Firefly
An interesting plot with the interesting secondary character of Freddy's ladyfriend's braggy, hero-wannabe, grandfather.  The art is slightly different-looking from the Freddy Fly story in Animal Fables 5.  Oxten, again, misses Woolfolk's error of bragging too much about his rival, DC's Funny Animal comic book, Animal Antics, by saying it is "The Funniest Animal Book of all!".  Incredibly bad editing.  And for a publisher to confuse his own former publication (of only a few months before), with one of his biggest publishing rivals, is incredibly hard to believe.

The incompetence and carelessness of both Bill Woolfolk and especially, Chief Editor, J.G. Oxten (who should have had a last look at his books just before going to print), are incredibly mind boggling.

[Robb_K]

Elaborate Neanderthal burials discovered in the middle east suggest belief in an afterlife and gods at least 30,000-40,000 years ago.

An ancient myth of the Blackfoot Indians always held my interest.
It did not tell of a creation but rather the first humans to travel to North America over the North Pole or at least over a ice age ice cap that may have extended further south.
A large tribe traveling across the ice were near starvation when the brothers who led the tribe saw a antler sticking outof the ice. One wrenched the antler looose causing the ice to split and a deep crevasse divided the halves of the tribe. Half went back the way they came the rest traveled on to the far north of North America then wandered south.
Myths, or perhaps traditions is a better word, such as these were carried on by word of mouth till recorded in the 19th and 20th century.

They say that all legends have at their roots the Human memory of events that occurred hundreds, or more likely, thousands of years ago.  The Algonkin peoples of which the Blackfoot/Blackfeet tribes are members came with the first great wave of northeast Asian tribes across The Bering Staits' land bridge during the height of the last ice age, about 20,000-30,000 years ago.  So, their memory has a lot of truth to it.  Also, there are tribes still living in northeastern Siberia, like The Chukchi, and others, that are related language and customs to the Algonkian and Athabaskan and Inuit tribes in North America.   That is a long time to keep a memory alive.  Also, there are tribes still living in northeastern Siberia, like The Chukchi, and others, that are related language and customs to the Algonkian and Athabaskan and Inuit tribes in North America.  So, the memory of half their original tribe going back to Asia from somewhere on the land bridge could also be accurate (or else it could represent the fact that half their tribe remained in Asia, not willing to travel so far.  Of course the trip from northeastern Siberia across the land bridge, through Alaska, and northern British Columbia, and down into central and southern Alberta, and northern Montana took hundreds of years.

I worked as an economics consultant for their northern Montana Reservation in 1972, helping to set up The Blackfeet Bank.  The official names for their Tribal Governments and groupings in Canada(Alberta) is "Blackfoot", while in USA (Montana) it is "Blackfeet".

[Robb_K]

Animal Fables 5
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=75892

The cover marks the book as an oddity, in that we have an insect superhero in a 'funny animal' book.
So, to go down another rabbit hole - yes please! - (1) Was this the first 'funny animal' " [insect. actually] superhero, predating superducks and mighty mice?   

Marvel's first super hero, the burning-hot hit known as the Human Torch, seared his way into readers' minds in 1939

So, Firefly was definitely derivitive.
The story; Why should flying insects,[they clearly have wings] need to take a horse and wagion to travel. And (2) are they horse-size insects or insect-size horses? But asking questions like that about this kind of story is pointless. That way lies madness.
So we have a western.
But then we have a completely different story altogether.
Generic and Dull because too obvious.
The Dog and the Bone.
Nicely illustrated and nicely told. Actually, the way he was drawn, I sympathized with the dog.
These were read in school back in the 50's. (3) I wonder if anybody of the last 2 or maybe 3 generations have ever heard of Aesop's fables. They are invaluable object lessons.
Danny Demon
(4) What kind of animal are Danny and Mr Fiend supposed to be?
Goats probably. Danny looks like a cartoon version of PAN.
Compared to this, Harvey's Hot Stuff and Spooky are quite sophisticated works.
So, far all the stories have used a heavy hand to make 'moral and ethical points' but have not been particularly entertaining in doing so.
(5) Comics McCormick
This is a step up in art and also gives a 2 page view of what the artist and writer thought was the social milieu of the average comic book reader. Was it cut short? 
Fat and Slat. One page gags.
Typical for the period.
(6) I think that this kind of strip, two men exchanging one-liners, probably has its antecedents in Vaudeville.
A more modern example is FRANK AND EARNEST.
The Wind and the Sun. You could do a whole book of these fables. PD too. 
Hector the Inspector
Interesting little story. The unique element in the story is the 'naturally!' gag. Predates,'I am Groot!' by decades. 
As I have said before herein, 'there is nothing new under the sun.'
Pretty average for  a 'funny animal' comic for this period. I don't think too many children would be disappointed.       

(1) This book was from mid 1946, so Freddy Firefly didn't predate Fawcett's Hoppy, The Marvel Bunny (1942), Timely's Super Rabbit and MLJ's Super Duck (1943), and Fox's Cosmo Catt and Marvel Mutt (1945).  As to whether Freddy was the first superhero insect, there was a Sooper Dooper Ant (looking like Adolph Hitler) in Orbit's "Taffy Comics" in 1943, but he didn't demonstrate any superpowers, and it is questionable that he was a hero, in any case.  But Spotlight Publishers' "Latest Comics" had Super Duper Bug and B-29 The Bee Bombardier, both from 1945, so Freddy was NOT first.  I am sure there were several others that I can't recall off the top of my head.

(2) We have no way to know whether these insects were Human-sized, or insect-size, as their Universe in this comic series was not defined.  I choose to guess theses horses are insect size.  The artist should have put wings on them, and referred to them as "horse flies".

(3) We learned about Aesop's Fables in school back during the 1940s and 1950s.  Everyone in my parents generation learned them too, in The Netherlands, as well.  We also learned a lot of other things the kids today aren't learning.  We also got our knuckles rapped at by hard wooden rulers, and got hit in the rear end by hard wood paddles, often wth holes drilled in to limit wind resistance.  Times were different back then.

(4) Yes, Danny and the other demons are supposed to be half goats/half Humans, called "Fauns", like the god Pan.

(5) These 2 pages of "Comics McCormick" are an advert for his strip, which was published bi-monthly in EC's "Fat and Slat Comics".  The pages contain the secondary characters in his strip, rather than any judgement of what type of readers read comics.

(6) Absolutely correct!  Fat and Slat are basically a Vaudeville team, and all their jokes and gags were clearly copied from famous Vaudeville acts.  That's why most kids would not have liked them.  I think most of the sales of that series came from nostalgic adults.

[The Australian Panther]

Mad Hatter 1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=26872

Given that the character is PD, here is a contest for CB+ members - or anybody else.
Write [and Draw?] an origin story for him.
Why is he called Mad Hatter, given that he doesn't seem to be mad, in either sense of the word, and doesn't wear a hat?
Why is his costume purple with apparently, according to the cover anyway, wearing white underpants on the outside of the costume?
Could be fun.
Winner of the most logical and entertaining entry gets to pick something for a slot at the Reading Group.
So,moving right along, as the frog would say,
The Mad Hatter [story]
The art is excellent. Although the splash panel is ambiguous, attention-grabbing but that is it.
I actually like the prelude to the action.
Our hero is besotted with the girl reporter, but she can't see him for dust. Haven't we seen that somewhere before? Oh wait, in this case she is in love with her editor!
I don't actually mind, as a reader, that The Mad Hatter is already established before the story begins. This could have been a good lead-in to an origin.
He speaks in rhyme while fighting bad guys.
That's just annoying and would get old fast.
That's no Bat-symbol! Wouldn't put fear into any criminals.
But we can begin to see where the creators borrowed their ideas from.   
And now we know, Spider-man wasn't the first Superhero who cracks jokes.
Question - how does he know her name is Barbara? Have they met before?
If not, wouldn't she wonder?
The pity is - the meat of a good origin story and a long run for the character is all here - although Siegal and Schuster may have decided to sue!
If there was ever a story that badly needed a good editor, this was it! 
Little Danny Demon
I commented on this character in the previous review. Nothing further to add.
I prefer not to read or review text pieces.
The case of the scornful girl.
Two page filler. No attempt at continuity. Would have been better to make up another character for this.
Freddy the Firefly
Pretty straightforward but clever funny insect story. Not bad.

Thanks Robb for these excellent choices. And we all learned a lot during this topic. That's what I like to see.
Kingcat will be bringing us something new tomorrow. Can't wait!
Cheers!

[paw broon]

Couple of thoughts. If the Mad Hatter's projection doesn't instill fear in the hearts of ne'erdowells (to borrow from The Shadow), how do we feel about the Blue Beetle's scarab sign?
Origins.  It is interesting that British story papers often had origins for their masked mystery men.   We have a number on site.
A hatter is also a miner and ( Australian), a person who lives alone in the Bush.
Also a verb meaning to entangle (old English) and old Scots, get someone worked up.  So perhaps our mmm knows something we don't. 
I still like the hero.