[cimmerian32]

So pretty...  and, preserved forever, and thanks to scans, I can read it anytime I want, without having to damage my original copy

http://goldenagecomics.co.uk//index.php?dlid=6033

[bchat]

Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm too strict when grading comics I'm selling, but that "7.5" seems way too high.  It's a nice looking copy, though.

[rez]

It's the cream to off white pages and the tight spine coupled with no creases that makes the corner chip and dust shadows be overshadowed
that does it.
That baby sat unhindered in a stack somewhere for a loooong time.
Look at that spine. My My.

[JVJ]

I have a copy upstairs, lying flat in a box with its brethren, and I can access it ANY time just by turning the box upside down on a flat surface and pulling out the issue. No plastic bag and I'm totally ignorant of what "white" the paper might get as a CGC grade. But I get to read IT and smell IT and feel IT and enjoy IT. I find scans are GREAT for books I don't own, but they don't supply the satisfaction afforded by the real thing.

The notion of a comic book as an entombed THING is SO foreign to me. You should have seen the Heritage and Metropolis guys when I pulled an Amazing Fantasy 15 and Zap #1 out of my shoulder bag and they didn't even have backing boards!

I'm happy to let an auction house do the "slabbing" and charge me, but I refuse to consider it for books that I own. I simply see no point in it. I remember back in 1989 when I was selling my Silver Age Marvels directly. I put them in bags and bought a table at WonderCon. One of the big spenders eventually came to my house to see some of the very early Fantastic Fours that I hadn't taken to the con. As with all of my collection, they weren't in plastic bags. This guy wouldn't even TOUCH the FF1. He insisted that it be in a bag before he would even pick it up! I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that he never read that copy.

Enjoy them. Hell, they are ONLY comic books.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Collectors come in all shapes and sizes eh Jim? 
Thanks for sharing your stories.  They were a lot of fun to read.

-Yoc

[cimmerian32]

Maybe I've always been way too condition conscious, but I have NEVER enjoyed reading actual comics...  I remember when I was a kid, wishing there was a way I could read my comics without having to touch them...  fast forward thirty years...  SCANS!  Wait, I only have to go through my books one more time?  Then I can keep them safe and pretty, preserved for the future?  AWESOME!

I don't consider CGC cases to be tombs...  more like time capsules...  preservation chambers...  but, like I said, maybe I have always been too condition conscious...

[Yoc]

Keep'em clean and Squinky eh Cimm?
 

[cimmerian32]

Oh, and they have NEVER been just comic books!  I have disliked that stigma all my life.  They are works of art, they are childhood fantasies on paper, they are both highbrow and lowbrow satires on the human condition...  they are whatever the writers and artists choose to make them.  But JUST comics?  NEVER!

[cimmerian32]

We need more icons/smileys available for accentuating the spoken word...   My last post seems like I'm yelling at Jim...  wasn't meant that way...  was more in the mock-mad vein than in the actual vehemence line...  Sorry, Jim.

Your point of view is valid, I just don't share it.  I guess you and I just value different aspects of comic books.  I think and feel that they have never gotten the respect they deserved as an artform, regardless of content...  I have pretty much always bought comics based on the artwork in them, as opposed to the story...  All I require is a decent story to give the artwork a reason for being...  Since the best art is often on the cover, encapsulating them through CGC still leaves the most important part (for me) available for admiration and appreciation.  And, now that the world of scanning is here, I maintain a file of the scans for all of the books I have CGC'd...  and if I get a book that needs scanning, I will scan it and share it before getting it encased. 

For me, that is what scanning has always been about...  Sharing the books that I like and exposing more of the world to an artform I love.  I would like to take this opportunity, Jim, to thank you for all of the books you have made available for scanning.  They are much appreciated!  And thanks too to the scanners who are doing the grunt work of getting them scanned, edited and shared! 

[Drusilla lives!]

As I've said elsewhere I have no problem with the idea of what CGC is doing conceptually... that is, removing the guesswork of "condition" out of the equation when it comes to the buying and selling of a particular comic.  And once this purpose is fulfilled (the transaction completed) the comic can be removed (if the buyer chooses to do so)... so in that regard I don't have a problem either (each of us has ones own idea of "enjoyment").  

I do have a problem with the pricing of the service, and the fact that the business is oligopolistic with a few player's with apparently no independently agreed upon standards to which they (and others which might enter the business) would adhere too.  If it cost less to grade a book say... but perhaps more importantly, if it cost less to re-grade a book once opened, I think it would go a long way toward the acceptance of the process.  But that only comes with economies of scale I suppose... which goes back to the business being oligopolistic in nature and ultimately, the lack of independently agreed upon standards, standing in the way.

BTW, CGC being the first (and most likely biggest grader) will probably allow their grading "standard" to become the "agreed upon" standard of condition eventually.  So I'd still favor having them grade my books than another lesser known company at this time.

[JVJ]

Oh, and they have NEVER been just comic books!  I have disliked that stigma all my life.  They are works of art, they are childhood fantasies on paper, they are both highbrow and lowbrow satires on the human condition...  they are whatever the writers and artists choose to make them.  But JUST comics?  NEVER!

Not the content, cimmerian! The content of comic books is priceless, but any individual copy of those priceless contents IS "just a comic book." The package for the art is not where the value lies. I never meant to imply that what was inside was without value. I would hope that you would know me better than that.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ]

We need more icons/smileys available for accentuating the spoken word...   My last post seems like I'm yelling at Jim...  wasn't meant that way...  was more in the mock-mad vein than in the actual vehemence line...  Sorry, Jim.

Totally unnecessary, cimm. I didn't feel "yelled at" at all.

Your point of view is valid, I just don't share it.  I guess you and I just value different aspects of comic books.  I think and feel that they have never gotten the respect they deserved as an artform, regardless of content...  I have pretty much always bought comics based on the artwork in them, as opposed to the story...  All I require is a decent story to give the artwork a reason for being...  Since the best art is often on the cover, encapsulating them through CGC still leaves the most important part (for me) available for admiration and appreciation.  And, now that the world of scanning is here, I maintain a file of the scans for all of the books I have CGC'd...  and if I get a book that needs scanning, I will scan it and share it before getting it encased. 

Again, I stress that comic books have few advocates more vocal or devout than I. I see them, as you do, as a uni que artform. They are, in my opinion, VERY different from, say, newspaper strips, which for me have almost no appeal whatsoever. My statement was meant, again, to apply to the individual copies of those comic books which, in my opinion, should be treated more as text books than treasures. Putting one "behind bars" in a CGC slab is tantamount to torture, IMHO. It's like putting an art book with a reproduction of the Mona Lisa into a plastic bag and telling people that there's this really great painting inside, but you'll have to settle for only looking at this other one that the art director decided on for the cover. Collectors are too hung up on the "value" of a book, when to my mind the value is what's inside.

For me, that is what scanning has always been about...  Sharing the books that I like and exposing more of the world to an artform I love.  I would like to take this opportunity, Jim, to thank you for all of the books you have made available for scanning.  They are much appreciated!  And thanks too to the scanners who are doing the grunt work of getting them scanned, edited and shared! 

I second your thank you to the four guys doing the scanning. They have much more patience than I ever would. I just finished scanning 25 pictures for John Benson's upcoming Alter Ego article on Warren Kremer. And nine pages of Mystery Men #4 for this site. It's NOT my favorite thing to do. As for my part, you're welcome. It's a real pleasure knowing that my books will get more exposure to more fans. As for sharing, and sending them through the mail, and exposing them to the pressures of scanning... They're only comic books, my friend.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[OtherEric]

I do want to thank Cimm for his words in defense of the CCG.  I'm firmly on Jim's side of the argument; but it's good to see somebody I know loves the books as something other than an investment who appreciates the service.  It's good to see them as not the enemy.

I really can't imagine ever getting any of my books slabbed, though.

[bchat]

I think CGC has its place.  I think graded & slabbed books sold online help keep sellers honest, in as much as they can't pretend a book is in a better grade than what it is IF it's graded properly.  I see people try to pass-off Very Good books as Near Mint a lot on eBay, and people not paying attention or taking the time to look at a picture are probably seriously disappointed when those books arrive.  CGC takes the guess-work out, it's just disappointing that the prices get so out-of-whack compared to non-CGC books in the same condition.

And I'm sticking with my opinion of the Grade.  It's too high.  It really shouldn't be more than a 6.0-6.5.  Rough edges, blunted corner, cover obviously was cut off-center by the printer, writing in the "O", it looks like the top of the cover is beginning to fade [with a couple of "spots" as well] while the entire right-hand edge has darkened.  For a "7.5", which roughly is supposed to translate to "Very Fine", the flaws are supposed to be minor and barely noticable, not numerous and obvious.

OR maybe I really am too strict when it comes to grading comics, which is the way I want to be.

[kquattro]

Enjoy them. Hell, they are ONLY comic books.

Amen.

The fascination/obsession about condition didn't really materialize until Overstreet became the standard guide for collectors. Prior to that, from what I recall, there was a vague scale that varied from dealer to dealer. My favorite was the Very Good condition which could mean anything from a tight, fairly well-read copy to a rag that had pieces of a cover and pages missing. But even with this large discrepancy in definitions, there was generally room for negotiation. Most dealers that I dealt with directly would be willing to haggle about the price over losing the sale due to perceived condition definitions. (Mail order was always an adventure, though. A Howard Rogofsky VG comic could be a very unpleasant surprise when it arrived in the mail.)

But when Overstreet became the accepted guide, the benefit of having an standard to go by quickly led to obsessive preoccupation about the most trivial of "flaws". A staple stress line could mean the difference between VG+ or FN-, a quarter inch corner fold could change the price by $20, etc. The obsessiveness grew to the point we are at today. Many collectors are no longer fans of the comic book's contents, they are fans of its condition. They no longer collect comic books as examples of a unique art form, they collect the paper its printed on. I don't fault those who do collect for those reasons, I just don't get it.

Encapsulating comics is the ultimate response to the condition obsessiveness. I have this nagging feeling that at some point the market for these sealed books is going to fade, perhaps even collapse. If so, the cycle of musical chairs the resulted in continually escalating prices for them will stop and the last guy who bought them will be stuck with a comic that truly is ONLY worth the paper it is printed on.

--Ken Q 

[cimmerian32]

@bchat...

re: grade...  Rough edges, blunted corner, cover obviously was cut off-center by the printer, writing in the "O", it looks like the top of the cover is beginning to fade [with a couple of "spots" as well] while the entire right-hand edge has darkened.

The off-center cut in this case is a benefit, as it means none of the right side is missing, but rather that the left side is wrapping around to the back.  This is considered much more desirable than to have the off-set go the other way and part of the art be cut off...  the writing in the "O" is not counted, as that is what makes this pedigree unique, and as such is a window into time when the distributor/vendor would mark books as they came in...  that leaves the slightly rough edges, the blunted corner, and the fading/darkening, all of which are allowable in a very fine minus, or 7.5.

@kquattro...

the fascination/obsession with grade IS a direct result of having standardized (yet still somewhat subjective) guidelines for grading.  Unfortunately, being born in 1970, this was just the way it was at the time I was introduced to collecting back issue comics...  Grade decided value, each grade had and has certain parameters, and learning about the various defects, and what causes them, was part and parcel of my comic book education.  I wish I had grown up when a grade difference only meant 20 dollars or so, but instead, I grew up when the difference between a VG and a FN could mean hundreds or even thousands of dollars difference...  Like it or not, condition matters, and will always matter.  More so as the age of these books increases.  Whether or not CGC is always the standard, it will never be a bad thing to have a high grade comic book.

As far as why I buy comics, I buy them because I love them, and their relative grade/value only really matters when I am trying to acquire them...  I don't keep my comics in a box, only to take them out every once in a while.  They are displayed all around my house, and I draw pleasure from them every time I walk past them.  CGC makes nice frames

[rez]

heh
The more you see about Cimm the more ya like the guy.

[John C]

Since the best art is often on the cover,

Without starting an entirely different debate, I think this tends to be a matter of taste, and the assertion (repeated frequently) has done a lot of damage to the form.

What I mean is that many Silver Age and quite a few Golden Age books had dynamic artwork inside that told a story with every single panel.  The lines are clear, and everything you see has a distinct purpose.

But now everybody wants to be a cover artist, so it's all static posing and bland or meaningless backgrounds.  It's sad that, in a lot of cases, I can't follow a book from one panel to another.

I know you mean something slightly different, but I did think it was worth speaking up for the quality of the innards.

[kquattro]

Like it or not, condition matters, and will always matter.  More so as the age of these books increases.  Whether or not CGC is always the standard, it will never be a bad thing to have a high grade comic book.

I hate to be contrary, but here I will.

Everyone here (I'm assuming) was initially exposed to comics as a medium produced on paper. Today, that's not necessarily so. Comic readers can go to the Internet and read comics produced for that venue. In the future, most, if not all, comics will be Internet based. A comic reader 20 years from now may have never even seen a paper comic book. So what connection and value would they place on that object? Will there always be collectors who collect the old paper comics? Probably. But will there be enough of them to support the high prices paid today for them? I doubt it.

Part of the value attached to comic books comes from the nostalgic response to them. The early comic fans who grew up during WWII and into the Fifties created the original market for Golden Age comics. Baby Boomers who grew up on comics from the late-Fifties and Sixties drove up the prices of comics from that time period when they reached adulthood, got jobs and would pay any price to retrieve the treasures of their youth. Generation X-ers would do the same years later with comics of the Seventies. If the nostalgic response is removed from the equation, will comics from earlier generations still command high prices?

If any of this is true, and IMHO I believe it is, then the condition of a comic will mean very little; no matter who is grading it, no matter if it is encapsulated or not.

As far as why I buy comics, I buy them because I love them...

And that's what truly matters.

--Ken Q

[kquattro]

Just as a followup to this:

Like it or not, condition matters, and will always matter.  More so as the age of these books increases.  Whether or not CGC is always the standard, it will never be a bad thing to have a high grade comic book.

and my own comment:

If any of this is true, and IMHO I believe it is, then the condition of a comic will mean very little; no matter who is grading it, no matter if it is encapsulated or not.

I'd like to suggest reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

--Ken Q

[cimmerian32]

Part of the value attached to comic books comes from the nostalgic response to them. The early comic fans who grew up during WWII and into the Fifties created the original market for Golden Age comics. Baby Boomers who grew up on comics from the late-Fifties and Sixties drove up the prices of comics from that time period when they reached adulthood, got jobs and would pay any price to retrieve the treasures of their youth. Generation X-ers would do the same years later with comics of the Seventies. If the nostalgic response is removed from the equation, will comics from earlier generations still command high prices?

Yes...  I agree with you about what has driven the market up to this point.  But, and this is a big but...  I think that the market expansion that we have seen in recent years is a market paradigm switch...  instead of nostalgia being the driving force behind wishing to own high end copies of books, it is art appreciation that is driving it...  it is layman's art, by and large, art that anyone can access and appreciate...  the hole in my theory is the recent (last couple of years) explosion in the prices of Silver Age...  That, I think is pure speculation...  Silver Age books are generally not rare, and yet they are getting to be as expensive as Golden Age, which is truly scarce, with mostly better art...  This Silver bubble is what you are referring to...  Nostalgia driven anarchy...  Rare Golden Age has been on a steady rise for the last thirty years, and is a fairly mature market that is as stable as any...  Golden Age books will never be worthless in my lifetime.

[kquattro]

I think that the market expansion that we have seen in recent years is a market paradigm switch...  instead of nostalgia being the driving force behind wishing to own high end copies of books, it is art appreciation that is driving it...

If someone appreciates the artwork, then why trap that art in plastic? Assuming you are correct, then why would anyone spend the money on the actual comic book when they can either download it or, in many cases, buy a cheaper reprinting of it in book form? At the very least, why not buy a copy in a lesser grade, if it's truly the artwork that inspires the purchase?

As you note, speculation (many times by folks who aren't even comic book fans) drives the market. Did the guy who bought Jim's ZAP #1 buy it for the intention of reading it? It has been reprinted--several times I believe--and if the art was the main reason for his purchase, then there were far cheaper options.

Once the generations who grew up on comics pass on, the value of comics will almost assuredly drop. Supply and demand. Once the supply outpaces the demand, the prices will drop.

Rare Golden Age has been on a steady rise for the last thirty years, and is a fairly mature market that is as stable as any...  Golden Age books will never be worthless in my lifetime.

Worthless, no. Worth less, yes.

--Ken Q

[JVJ]

If someone appreciates the artwork, then why trap that art in plastic? Assuming you are correct, then why would anyone spend the money on the actual comic book when they can either download it or, in many cases, buy a cheaper reprinting of it in book form? At the very least, why not buy a copy in a lesser grade, if it's truly the artwork that inspires the purchase?

I fear that downloads are always a compromise between file size and accurate reproduction. I've yet to see one that compares with examining the actual comic book. Perhaps when technology, bandwidth and download speed all improve and increase, scans will rank higher in my estimation. For now, it's the book, no matter what the condition that I'll ALWAYS opt for.

Did the guy who bought Jim's ZAP #1 buy it for the intention of reading it? It has been reprinted--several times I believe--and if the art was the main reason for his purchase, then there were far cheaper options.

Of course he didn't buy it for the art, as you well know. So, it does make one ponder as to his actual objective...

Rare Golden Age has been on a steady rise for the last thirty years, and is a fairly mature market that is as stable as any...  Golden Age books will never be worthless in my lifetime.

Worthless, no. Worth less, yes.

--Ken Q

My DREAM is that every comic book will become worthless, Ken. They I can afford to see all those books that have always eluded me because of price. Early Cook-Mahon, early National, early Fawcett - material that will probably never make it to GAC. Of course I'm happy that my Zap (and my Amazing Fantasy #15) earned me some money, but, to paraphrase Gilbert Shelton "Comics will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through the times of no comics." It's usually possible to get more money. Thanks to GAC, it might also be usually possible to get more comics.

It's not my dream come true, but it helps.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[OtherEric]

Thanks to GAC, it might also be usually possible to get more comics.

It's not my dream come true, but it helps.

Exactly, Jim.  It's not the same as having the original books.  But it's so far better than what I might have ever realistically hoped for even 15 years ago that I can't help but smile just thinking about it.

[kquattro]

I fear that downloads are always a compromise between file size and accurate reproduction. I've yet to see one that compares with examining the actual comic book. Perhaps when technology, bandwidth and download speed all improve and increase, scans will rank higher in my estimation. For now, it's the book, no matter what the condition that I'll ALWAYS opt for.

Me too, of course. But a generation that is growing up now won't have the same attachment that we do to the paper comic. There are many "fans" of comic book heroes (from the films) who have never read a comic book. And look at the newspapers that are going from print editions (such as our local paper, the Ann Arbor News) to an all online edition. It's inevitable that comics will become a primarily online medium (there will always be some who insist on paper for their comic projects). And as memories of certain comics and characters fade, the value placed on their comics will decrease. It's not necessarily a bad thing--like Jim said, I wish all comics were worthless so I could buy them--but putting a lot of money into high condition, encapsulated comics as a long term investment is risky at best. There are a LOT of people living in houses today which are worth a LOT less than what they paid for them. Every market has a peak.

--Ken Q