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Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment  (Read 2465 times)

SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2023, 11:50:54 AM »

Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.

Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.

I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.

And that was before the official comics book code came in.

There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.

Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).

*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2023, 04:26:51 AM »

Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788
Since this was Kingcat's Christmas post I'm going to concentrate on the Mary Marvel story.
But I have two other comments to make. 
1/ The relationship between the 'Golden Age' and the "Silver Age' and later, never ceases to confuse me.
If national/DC eventually got the rights to the Fawcett characters, how did Marvel end up, courtesy of Roy Thomas, I think, as per usual, with a character called 'The Phantom Eagle' ?
2/ It also never ceases to amaze me how many later concepts can be seen as rehashes of something first done in the 'Golden Age'.  So, 'Spooks' to me, covers much of the same conceptual ground as DC's Deadman
Also, in the Additional Information section, there are no script or art credits, even tho, under the Mr Scarlett story, it states, 'Plot and art credit revision per Will Murray in Alter Ego #157 (March 2019).' Huh?   
So, Mary Marvel!
It seems this is Mary's first headline story outside of a Captain Marvel comic.
I like her SHAZAM gods, Senena, Hypolyta, Ariadne, Zephyrus, Aurora, Minereva, [Grace, Strength, Skill, Fleetness, Beauty, Wisdom] 
So, Billy is Graceless and not beautiful? Just kidding!
Quote
  Why is Mary calling the woman who raised her Mrs. Bromfield instead of mother or mom?

I think this is adequately explained by the exchange between the Butler and Mary. [Panels 3 and 4 on page 2]
My issue with logical continuity here, is that the relationship must have been good, not many foster parents would have been happy about an entire orphanage being invited to their home on Christmas eve, without them being asked first. But I'm nit-picking.
I'm also curious that while the child Billy becomes an Adult with the rank of Captain, Mary stays a girl,  and is just Mary. Wonder what the thinking was there?
Basic story - bad guys spoil Christmas for Children, good guys foil their evil plans.
It annoys me that they 'broke the forth wall'; by having Cap and Mr Scarlett come to the rescue and say 'Merry Christmas'! to the reader. Mary didn't need them. I suspect any little girls reading this would have been proud of how tough and confident she was.
But, on this same last page of the story, there are suddenly 4 men waving at the reader. I would say these are meant to be the editorial creative staff.   
It was instructive [makes me a little sad] to see how this somewhat accurate depiction of  a pre-adolescent young girl has been changed to something altogether different in current depictions of Mary Marvel
Quote
This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time.
 
Exactly QQ!

This Post was KIngcat filling in for Robb, who couldn't make it.
So, I'm keeping the schedule and tomorrow I will post something quite different and Robb [or whoever he chooses] will have the next slot!
Cheers! 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 04:34:51 AM by The Australian Panther »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2023, 10:42:54 AM »

1/ The relationship between the 'Golden Age' and the "Silver Age' and later, never ceases to confuse me.
If national/DC eventually got the rights to the Fawcett characters, how did Marvel end up, courtesy of Roy Thomas, I think, as per usual, with a character called 'The Phantom Eagle' ?

DC licensed the rights to the Marvels in the '70s, other Fawcett superheroes were also licensed later that decade (because apparently a writer used them in a 3-part JLA/JSA story without seeing if they had permission first. Whoops!)

Sometime in the late '80s or early '90s DC outright bought the rights to the Fawcett characters.

As for Roy Thomas, well he's a fanboy and if he couldn't use the original characters he would just reuse the names of old characters. As any trademarks to those names had probably lapsed reusing a name wouldn't be a problem.

Also, in the Additional Information section, there are no script or art credits, even tho, under the Mr Scarlett story, it states, 'Plot and art credit revision per Will Murray in Alter Ego #157 (March 2019).' Huh?

The GCD is transitioning from text-based credits to link-based credits and for some reason the names on the links don't carry over to here. There are credits on the GCD page.
Script: Henry Lynne Perkins (plot); ? (script)
Pencils: Binder Studio
Inks: Binder Studio


I'm also curious that while the child Billy becomes an Adult with the rank of Captain, Mary stays a girl,  and is just Mary. Wonder what the thinking was there?

I'm not positive, but I think the idea was that Captain Marvel was supposed to be a separate person & not a grown up Billy. This idea seems to be used in a later story where Zeus' aim is off and he keeps missing Billy and hitting other people and they become Captain Marvel, not a super-powered version of themselves. It would explain why the other members of the Marvel Family (Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, & the Lieutenants Marvel) become super-powered versions of themselves as there is no super-powered individual to take their places.

I don't think this idea was ever mentioned, if it is even right, so most people just assumed the Big Red Cheese to be a magically aged up Billy, something that I think was canonized in DC's Kingdom Come mini-series.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2023, 10:21:53 PM »


Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788

Basic story - bad guys spoil Christmas for Children, good guys foil their evil plans.
It annoys me that they 'broke the forth wall'; by having Cap and Mr Scarlett come to the rescue and say 'Merry Christmas'! to the reader. Mary didn't need them. I suspect any little girls reading this would have been proud of how tough and confident she was.
But, on this same last page of the story, there are suddenly 4 men waving at the reader. I would say these are meant to be the editorial creative staff.   
It was instructive [makes me a little sad] to see how this somewhat accurate depiction of  a pre-adolescent young girl has been changed to something altogether different in current depictions of Mary Marvel
Quote
This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time.
 
Exactly QQ!



Panther, on reading your review, I suddenly realised that I had read the wrong comic altogether. I had downloaded this comic, but also another Mary Marvel one previously. I obviously clicked on the wrong one to read. Oh well. At least the one I read included the dodgy Uncle Marvel. Put it down to a Christmas brain fade. Looking forward to your selections.

Cheers

QQ
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2023, 10:27:46 PM »


Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.

Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.

I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.

And that was before the official comics book code came in.

There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.

Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).

*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that.


Thanks for all of that info, SuperScrounge. I didn't realise the connections between Mary Marvel and the creation of Supergirl. Also interesting that William Moulton Marsten was on one of the editorial boards, as he turned out to be a bit dodgy as well.

After reading Panther's review, I realise that I had read the completely wrong issue of Mary Marvel. I had downloaded another one previously and accidentally read the wrong one. So if my review didn't make sense, that's why.  :D

Cheers

QQ
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2023, 01:46:47 AM »

Well it's past midnight and I see the Panther has already uploaded his choices for reading group #288, so there's nothing left for me but to sign off on this one.

Sorry I haven't been around as much as I'd hoped, it's been a busy and unpredictable holiday period chez moi, I'm just glad to see that everyone found something to enjoy in my seasonal selection. I certainly did.

On the subject of Captain Marvel, I agree with the Scrounge, I feel that the Captain was an entirely separate entity who took the place of Billy Batson after the word of power was spoken, but the two shared an awareness of each other's existence and memories. There are issues where Billy and The Captain share conversations with one another. This interesting phenomena was explored by Alan Moore in the comeback story he wrote for UK superhero Marvelman (basically a Captain Marvel rip off for L.Miller & Sons publications ) and his alter ego Mickie Moran. Mickie forgot his word of power and aged, but the Marvelman identity stayed the same as ever when he was recalled.

As for Mary Marvel, my favourite story is her origin, which is in Captain Marvel #18 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15858
and IMHO is surprisingly feminist for it's time. But I was going for an Xmas theme, I hope you didn't mind. I don't know who the four figures in the last panel are, and I'm not jumping to any conclusions!

Anyhow, thanks again to all of you for your participation and all the interesting facts you've brought to light, and I hope you have a good 2023.

All the best
K1ngcat
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2023, 11:07:08 PM »


Santa and the Mouse
I find myself wondering what inspired Emile Poulsson to write this?
Did he have a stocking with a hole in it when he was a child?
This is a high quality effort of its time, done with a lot of love.     

Not sure why the author wrote it, but it appears that Emile is a typo of Emilie. Interesting woman.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2023, 07:29:08 PM »

I read the Wow Comic with Mary Marvel's Christmas story and Mary Marvel's origin story in Captain Marvel, because I had never read it before, only having read a couple Captain Marvel and Superman and Batman stories in that genre in my entire lifetime (that determined that I wouldn't like "superhero stories").  The Christmas story was very expected, being the standard comic book Christmas story for children, that the local community's planned (charity) special holiday celebration and toy giving for underprivileged (usually orphan home-based) children is almost ruined by the toys or donated money for the party and toys purchase is stolen by the story's villains. 

Because that story plot was so expected, this story was a bit boring to me.  Had I been given the assignment of writing that story, which required that same scenario/basic theme and plot, I'd have been determined to "jazz it up" as much as possible.  The best way to do that would be to use Will Eisner's tactic of making the villains interesting, by developing their characters much more than a normal "Cops vs. Robbers" plot, by using an unusual character trait or event in their pasts that makes their turn to a life of crime understandable, and makes them more "Human" in the eyes of the reader.  Of course, that presages that the villains will most likely "be redeemed" at the end of the story, possibly voluntarily giving back the toys or toy money (after "seeing the light"), or by being caught, made to feel guilty, and then feel much better when they see the kids enjoying the party food  and their received gifts.

As to Mary, and her newfound powers, I have the same problem that I have with Billy Batson becoming Captain Marvel, being pure magic, with no attempt even trying to use some subterfuge of pseudoscience to cloud over the obvious, at least to readers that don't think too deeply (as writers like Carl Barks did effectively).  I have big trouble believing that simply enunciating the word, "Shazam", brings super strength and ability to fly (2 unrelated occurrences), and for Billy, it also matures him to a fully-grown man, while for Mary, it only provides her those 2 powers, but does NOT change her body physically, or her level of maturity.  And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.  Actually, once the secret would get out, it would spread to virtually every non hermit Human, and Earth would become a planet of superstring, flying, practising "magicians" (superheroes and super villains). 

That scenario leads to my problems with the original creator of Captain Marvel (C.C. Beck?) not having had explained exactly how The Gods decided to bestow these powers upon Billy Batson (why it was pre-ordained), and also upon his sister (later cousin?) Mary, to avoid the problem of any other Humans deciding totter "Shazam", and empower themselves. And what is the connection of that wise sage, who informed Billy of his "birthright", to the ancient gods? And is he an ancient immortal being, who lives in the sky (Valhalla?), or is he a present mortal, who lives in an old, abandoned subway train tunnel, beneath Central(New York) City?  I would have liked those things explained in some way.  Maybe there could have been a flashback to a meeting of The Gods, in which they have the gods and goddesses and heroes (half-mortal and half-human), who make up the "Shazam" anagram, donate their powers to the anagram's utterance in some visual magician's rite of magic (perhaps mixing a potion in a large cauldron?), with a ritual tossing of some powders representing those "powers", attributes, and skills.  That event would be shown in a very dramatic splash panel, occurring in the black of night, illuminated by dramatic lighting from only the fire under the cauldron.  Perhaps the ceremony could have had those gods speaking in Old Norse, Old Latin, or Old Greek (depending upon their particular cultural origins, and given asterisks, and whose text is translated to English in footnotes at the bottom of the page (which was done in Carl Barks' stories).

As to the idea that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are two different beings, bringing up the question of whether or not they can exist in the same physical dimension at the same time (and react with each other as different beings) brings about a big additional problem.  I would say it is a LOT safer to not go there.  That later (DC) story in which that happens, opened up a big can of worms.

The bold action of NOT using some kind of pseudoscience to "cloud over" for the reader such problems of using pure magic, is what makes it impossible for me to enjoy "Superhero"-style comic book stories, because as a scientist, and a realist (even at the tender ages of 5 or 6 and above), would take me out of the story flow, to ask WHY?  Whereas, in stories by Carl Barks, and H.G. Wells, and Jules Verne, and other classic writers, who used (1) either a general non-scientists', slightly educated instinctual guesses as to the reasons for things appearing a certain way, or (2) using pseudoscience to make non-understandable occurrences or known false assertions seem plausible, would allow me to stay within the story flow, and enjoy the reading simply for its entertainment value. 
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2023, 09:06:46 PM »

Quote
And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people. 

There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2023, 10:44:58 PM »

Quote
I have big trouble believing that simply enunciating the word, "Shazam", brings super strength and ability to fly (2 unrelated occurrences), and for Billy, it also matures him to a fully-grown man, while for Mary, it only provides her those 2 powers, but does NOT change her body physically, or her level of maturity.  And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.  Actually, once the secret would get out, it would spread to virtually every non hermit Human, and Earth would become a planet of superstring, flying, practising "magicians" (superheroes and super villains).  


This type of thing has more than once later been used in plot devices.
Quote
As to the idea that Billy Batson and Captain Marvel are two different beings, bringing up the question of whether or not they can exist in the same physical dimension at the same time (and react with each other as different beings) brings about a big additional problem.  I would say it is a LOT safer to not go there.  That later (DC) story in which that happens, opened up a big can of worms. 

Roy Thomas, in his original MARVEL version had his Captain Marvel click two wrist bands together and change places with another human being, Rick Jones, who had his own story and relationship to other Marvel characters. 

CC Beck, in particular, was primarily intent in writing stories for young children, while people like Kirby and Eisner and even Stan Lee were from the beginning aiming at an older audience, since their primary influence was the Newspaper comic strips which were aimed at a general audience. Mum, Dad and the kids all read Flash Gordon and Popeye.
Beck hated what DC did with the Fawcett characters.
[Robb, I keep forgetting that you would be largely unaware of what happened to these and other characters during the 60's and up to the present day.]   

Comic book heroes and funny animals alike are fantasy, and like the wizard of OZ, it doesn't pay to look too close.  It's the stories that can be told once the premise is established that is the point of all fiction.
Science?
I love science fiction but that's always built on a series of assumptions that are taken for granted.
If more logical and believable. Asimov never wrote about the science behind the construction of a Robot, just about the possibilities of living in a world of Robots that could think for themselves. Robert Heinlein wrote about things that were logically impossible ['By His bootstraps'] for example, to stretch our imagination and get us to think. Verne? Is it really possible to build a gun and fire men in a bullet to hit the moon?
Wells? The fantasy world that he landed in - which was an allegory - and which is logically impossible anyway - is the point of the story - not writing about how a Time machine might work.
If you have all the money in the world, and you want it to grow - you invest it - you use it - you buy things with it - You don't hoard it in a giant safe.
How do a bunch of criminals walk around in groups with masks on and wearing prison striped shirts, cause massive destruction constantly and not get arrested?   
How do Donald or Micky survive economically? Donald can't hold a job and both of them are constantly Journeying all over the world doing everything but earning money.
Do Huey, Dewey and Louie ever go to school?
Whether the original premise is logical is irrelevant.
There is a phrase used in Science Fiction, 'Willing suspension of disbelief'
So if I have a creator and storyteller as good as CC Beck, Jack Kirby, Gardener Fox, Lee Falk, Carl Barks and the like, they allow me to 'willingly suspend my disbelief' I do so and enjoy their story-telling. I'm here on CB+ because of a lifetime of admiring their talent and craft.
The only issue is when there are jarring inconsistencies in the world envioronment in which they tell their stories, and here we are talking about the differences between Billy Batson/Captain Marvel and Mary Batson/Mary Marvel. But they don't stop me enjoying the stories. What stays with me about the Mary Marvel story, is the sense of innocence that comes across. Bearing in mind, that this character is an orphan living with foster parents who has only just found her brother. In a modern comic that premise would make her a tragic figure. Hmm, there are the elements here that you could use for a variation on a Christmas Carol!

Cheers!       
   
 
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2023, 11:19:28 PM »


Quote
And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.

There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.


Clever plot device by the writer.  Clearly, the engineers who designed the belt used voice recognition technology to activate the belt's workings to provide his super strength and ability to fly, and other powers (IF he has any).  So, that leaves the choice open to decide to make the powers "magical", OR, to provide some "pseudo-scientific" explanation for the belt providing a temporary gigantic surge adrenalin from the user's adrenalin gland, allowing him super strength (but only in short spurts, otherwise, past the safe time limit, he'd be in danger of suffering a heart attack or stroke).  THAT benefit/risk dichotomy would provide an interesting plot element, making every use of the belt more dramatic and interesting.  AGAIN, pointing out why, to me, more realism and some connection to the real World and things with which people can identify, is much more interesting and entertaining to my taste. 

Did the origin story for Agent Dynamo explain why only Agent Dynamo's voice can activate the belt?  Was the belt explained as having been engineered by scientists (e.g. a special Government weapons development laboratory)?  Or was all that left unexplained, or explained as being a "magic belt", or gifted to him from Space Aliens with higher technology, or a time traveller from the future? 

Can Agent Dynamo fly on his own?  I'd rather have that not be a magical superpower, but have him use some type of "jet pack".
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2023, 12:11:15 AM »


Comic book heroes and funny animals alike are fantasy, and like the wizard of OZ, it doesn't pay to look too close.  It's the stories that can be told once the premise is established that is the point of all fiction.
Science?
I love science fiction but that's always built on a series of assumptions that are taken for granted.
If more logical and believable. Asimov never wrote about the science behind the construction of a Robot, just about the possibilities of living in a world of Robots that could think for themselves. Robert Heinlein wrote about things that were logically impossible ['By His bootstraps'] for example, to stretch our imagination and get us to think. Verne? Is it really possible to build a gun and fire men in a bullet to hit the moon?
Wells? The fantasy world that he landed in - which was an allegory - and which is logically impossible anyway - is the point of the story - not writing about how a Time machine might work.
If you have all the money in the world, and you want it to grow - you invest it - you use it - you buy things with it - You don't hoard it in a giant safe.
How do a bunch of criminals walk around in groups with masks on and wearing prison striped shirts, cause massive destruction constantly and not get arrested?   
How do Donald or Mickey survive economically? Donald can't hold a job and both of them are constantly Journeying all over the world doing everything but earning money.
Do Huey, Dewey and Louie ever go to school?
Whether the original premise is logical is irrelevant.
There is a phrase used in Science Fiction, 'Willing suspension of disbelief'
So if I have a creator and storyteller as good as CC Beck, Jack Kirby, Gardener Fox, Lee Falk, Carl Barks and the like, they allow me to 'willingly suspend my disbelief' I do so and enjoy their story-telling. I'm here on CB+ because of a lifetime of admiring their talent and craft.
The only issue is when there are jarring inconsistencies in the world envioronment in which they tell their stories, and here we are talking about the differences between Billy Batson/Captain Marvel and Mary Batson/Mary Marvel. But they don't stop me enjoying the stories. What stays with me about the Mary Marvel story, is the sense of innocence that comes across. Bearing in mind, that this character is an orphan living with foster parents who has only just found her brother. In a modern comic that premise would make her a tragic figure. Hmm, there are the elements here that you could use for a variation on a Christmas Carol!
Cheers! 


As I stated above, everything doesn't have to be consistent with the latest scientific theories for me to accept them as "realistic".  Fifty to 100 years after that point, there are new theories to take their place,  sometimes, espousing the exact opposite of the previous theory.  My difference from Superhero and magic fans is just in the degree of "disbelief" I can tolerate, and still stay in the flow of the story (e.g. It is much easier to jar me out of "living in the story" than it is for Superhero, Science Fantasy, and purely magical stories' fans.) And, in addition, I am helped by attempts to "disguise" story happenings that are deemed impossible based on current scientific theories, but are seemingly possible or plausible by trying to keep the reader from thinking about them too deeply, using pseudo-scientific explanations.  And, I also accept futuristic scenarios that can't automatically be ruled out by the laws of physical science, that instinct tells us MIGHT be possible in the future, without having any idea of the technology that could make that scenario possible (i.e. Verne's prediction of a rocket to The Moon, or a submarine vessel that could travel completely underwater, with oxygen pumped into its water-sealed cabins, for people to breathe, or self-energising mechanical robots, who are also self-aware, without understanding the technology which could make them work.) 

I need something from my own experience in real life with which to relate.  Something that is unexplained, and left to assume is total magic, is much less satisfying to me than being able to gloss over something that is impossible, because it seems like it "might be possible", because I can imagine that it might be possible in the future because of future technology, or has been made "palatable" or less obvious through author's use of a pseudo-scientific explanation.  Also, a funny pseudo-scientific explanation, used by comical scientist, fake scientists, an professor characters, can add some wonderful, silly, ridiculous, and farcical characters to comedy stories, while helping to cover up the otherwise jarring unrealistic aspect of the plot, which might take the reader out of the story flow.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 04:01:58 AM by Robb_K »
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2023, 01:12:31 AM »

Quote
Did the origin story for Agent Dynamo explain why only Agent Dynamo's voice can activate the belt?  Was the belt explained as having been engineered by scientists (e.g. a special Government weapons development laboratory)

The first issue of THUNDER Agents (the whole run is on CB+) opens with a four-page prelude that gives a cursory "origin story." T.H.U.N.D.E.R. was one of those acronym agencies popular in the Man from UNCLE days. In a "remote mountain lab" they discover several gimmicks left behind when bad guys stormed the place and killed an inventor who'd been creating superscientific gadgets for the good guys. Each gadget gives its user some superheroic ability. The belt changes the wearer's molecular structure, giving him super strength and invulnerability. Other gadgets granted invisibility, super mental powers, and such. Once this was out of the way the back story was seldom mentioned. It was just a formality to get the superhero ball rolling.

The THUNDER Agents were largely the creation of Wallace Wood, who never took superheroing very seriously. It's obvious the stories' universe wasn't thought through in advance. Take for example the main villain, The Warlord, leader of a global villainy. In early issues he is spoken of (and once drawn) as being human, but later we learn he was one of a race of bald, green-skinned "subterraneans." Almost all the stories were simple, usually running 8 to 10 pages.

In the context of the time--the late 1960s--THUNDER Agents was something of a throwback, ignoring the trend toward longer stories, more characterization, and issue-to-issue continuity that Marvel was popularizing. That, as much as poor distribution and a 25c cover price, probably kept the series from being a hit. I was a Marvel fanboy back then. I bought THUNDER Agents for the terrific art by the likes of Wood and Reed Crandall, but I lamented the simplistic stories. In later years, numbed by Sturm und Drang superheroes, I came to appreciate Wood's lighthearted approach. He often poked gentle fun at the superhero genre. Dynamo's voice-activated belt (a modification by THUNDER engineers) was inspired by an unnamed comic book hero, and the enemy tumbled to the idea because one of their dumb-lug henchmen had read the same comic books.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2023, 03:18:59 AM »

Crash,
Quote
In the context of the time--the late 1960s--THUNDER Agents was something of a throwback, ignoring the trend toward longer stories, more characterization, and issue-to-issue continuity that Marvel was popularizing. That, as much as poor distribution and a 25c cover price, probably kept the series from being a hit. I was a Marvel fanboy back then. I bought THUNDER Agents for the terrific art by the likes of Wood and Reed Crandall, but I lamented the simplistic stories.

We are on the same page there.
Although I had wondered if distribution problems weren't a factor in keeping Thunder Agents from being a 'hit'.
2 things.
I think the creators of Thunder Agents could never make up their mind as to whether the book should be 'realistic' or not.
The most realistic element for me. was Lightning, a superfast Speedster like the Flash who was going to die inevitably as eventually as he was going to run out of energy and prematurely age. The book wasn't in print long enough to resolve that storyline. I've never had much 'willing suspension of disbelief' when it comes to speedsters, because we don't get realistic consequences when they go round corners or suddenly come to a stop.
I have no problem with magic being an element in a story, but I do with something that violates the laws of the universe.
Re Dynamo. First question - exactly how can a belt give somebody superstrength? If you accept that one, how he can voice-activate it is a minor issue.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
And I am convinced that with the THUNDER and LIGHTNING motifs Thunder Agents were to some degree, influenced by the Fawcett Marvels.
     
second, I have found that I can gauge the success of a creation by how hard it is for new creators to take the concept and make it work.
There have been several attempts at reviving Thunder Agents, many by highly respected creators - and yes there have been great  problems with copyright - But none of them have really succeeded.
Nobody has managed to do the Spirit as well as Will Eisner, Nobody has done Scrooge as well as Barks, Nobody does Alan Moore's characters as well as he did. Nobody has done Kirby's Forth World and made it as memorable as he did.
There are exceptions. Claremont and Byrne were able to take the X-men and make it their own.
My Flash Gordon will always be Mac Raboys Flash Gordon, as he did the weekend strip which I would read in luscious colour every Sunday in the 50's! This was the strip which made me apprecciate the portrayal of texture in art!         
Cheers!
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2023, 05:12:47 PM »

The thunder belt made the wearer's "body structure change to the consistency of steel" The body becomes much denser and the weight increases.  Hence Dynamo becomes one of the few examples of heroes jumping up in order to crash down through a building.  Ultra Boy is another. Not a lot of science in there, just good fun.
Robb, I'll send you a couple of articles which touch on the mass thingy and the body change heroes.  I get the feeling they wont have any influence on your views of the Big Red Cheese and family but I find them utterly charming, and the other versions of the Shazam idea are Interesting and enjoyable imo.
Words of power - Kagaran; Kimota; Sun Disc. 
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2023, 09:18:51 PM »


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And IF just saying that "magic word" would provide those powers to anyone, how would that secret be kept from other Humans, including badly-behaved people.

There's an amusing THUNDER Agents story in which agent Dynamo, who gains super strength when he twists a dial on his belt, was unable to activate the belt because villains had restrained his hands. Afterward the agency makes the belt voice-activated, so that it turns on when Dynamo speaks a "magic word." He chooses a word unlikely to be uttered in daily conversation, "Excelsior." However the bad guys notice that Dynamo yells "Excelsior!" before going into action and they figure it out. They record Dynamo saying the magic word and whenever the hero shows up and says "Excelsior" to turn on his belt they play the recording and the belt shuts off again.


I know I've read that plot before, though I can't recall whether it was in Captain Marvel or Marvelman!  The villain of the story, (either Sivana or Gargunza) records the boy hero saying his word of power and plays it back to the superhero figure, transforming him to child form for easy capture.

Interesting that Dynamo would choose the word Excelsior, wasn't that one of Stan Lee's catchwords in Marvel comics?

BTW, Panther, I hate what DC did with the Fawcett characters too!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 09:22:32 PM by K1ngcat »
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2023, 01:20:38 PM »

Well, thanks for that K1ngcat, you've got me frantically trying to find where that happened. 
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paw broon

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2023, 05:22:26 PM »

Found it.  It's a Marvelman story, "The Stolen Kimota".  Can't find which issue it appeared but it's reprinted in
Marvelman Family's finest #5. Yes, Gargunza up to his evil tricks again.
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2023, 07:35:12 PM »


Found it.  It's a Marvelman story, "The Stolen Kimota".  Can't find which issue it appeared but it's reprinted in
Marvelman Family's finest #5. Yes, Gargunza up to his evil tricks again.


Thanks for the detective work, paw, I knew it was out there somewhere!  :)
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2023, 07:35:06 AM »


(1) Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board.

Fawcett wasn't the only comic company with experts. I know All American had a panel (including the Wonder Woman author) & I'm pretty sure other companies had them as well.

(2) I suppose one wonders if there was a 'price' to the various experts appearing on these approval boards. I know William Moulton Marsten was 'allowed' to create Wonder Woman for All American Comics. I think Pearl S. Buck was on DC's group and she created some comic stories.

And that was before the official comics book code came in.

There were actually comic codes before the 'big' one in 1954 that applied to most of the publishers.

Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover).

*snicker* Otto Binder was the creator of both Mary Marvel and Supergirl. After the DC/Fawcett lawsuit DC hired Binder to work for them. Superman editor Mort Weisinger told Binder to give Superman a female cousin & Binder felt Mort had to know he had created Mary Marvel, but he never asked Mort about that. 


(1) I was absolutely shocked to see that Eleanor Roosevelt was a member of Fawcett's editorial board.  She was so busy with her projects for the betterment of Humankind and The Earth, that she couldn't possibly have had time to participate in considering what Fawcett was doing.  But, by the same token, being as wealthy as she was, and also with such high moral standards, she was likely impossible to sell use of her name for any price.

(2) Was Admiral Byrd a gambler late in life, or broke because he'd been swindled by his financial investment counsellor???  I doubt that he would sell use of his name for some thousands of Dollars, even 1940s Dollars.  And, I doubt that he had the time to actually participate on boards considering anything as trivial as whether or not Captain Marvel was "wholesome" entertainment for the kiddies.  Would these celebrities' publicity agents have convinced them that having their names listed on such boards would help to support and preserve their images as caring about the morals of the younger generation of Americans?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 06:29:06 PM by Robb_K »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2023, 08:39:18 AM »



(1) I was absolutely shocked to see that Eleanor Roosevelt was a member of Fawcett's editorial board.  She was so busy with her projects for the betterment of Humankind and The Earth, that she couldn't possibly have had time to participate in considering what Fawcett was doing.  But, by the same token, being as wealthy as she was, and also with such high moral standards, she was likely impossible to sell use of her name for any price.

(2) Was Admiral Byrd a gambler late in life, or broke because he'd been swindled by his financial investment counsellor???  I doubt that he would sell use of his name for some thousands of Dollars, even 1940s Dollars.  And, I doubt that he had the time to actually participate on boards considering anything as trivial as whether or not Captain Marvel was "wholesome" entertainment for the kiddies.  Would these celebrities publicity agents have convinced them that having their names listed on such boards would help to support and preserve their images as caring about the morals of the younger generation of Americans?


Ooh, the plot thickens. We could have conspiracy theories galore. Did all members of the board read all of the comics? Were they divided up among them? Did they just give Eleanor Roosevelt and Admiral Byrd one or two to read each month, so they could say they were on the board without having to do much? Did the comics get passed on to trusted minions who made the decisions on their behalf? Did they bring on different celebrities each month? Or did they not have to read them at all and just attend a meeting once a year and throw in their two cents worth of advice?  It would be interesting to know how the boards actually worked.
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2023, 11:25:42 PM »

Quote
Did they just give Eleanor Roosevelt and Admiral Byrd one or two to read each month, so they could say they were on the board without having to do much?

This is an intriguing subject. I can imagine Fawcett wanting to reassure parents that their comics were wholesome, and figuring that putting a noted person's name on them would help sales. After all, celebrity endorsements were a common feature in advertising of the period, and public outrage over comic books hadn't yet built up.

Perhaps someone who knew someone who knew Eleanor's representatives passed her a few comics, showed her that they were inoffensive, and asked if they could add her name to a symbolic "editorial board." I think Fawcett would have been an easy sell if they showed her Captain Marvel, with its kid-friendly art and lighthearted stories. As long as they didn't show her a story featuring Steamboat. That probably wouldn't have gone over too well. As for Admiral Byrd, I could imagine him saying, "Sure, why not?" and going back to feeding his penguins. I sincerely doubt any of the "editorial board" had any direct influence upon, or even interest in, the comics.

Though they were self-serving, Fawcett's celebrity endorsements don't bug me because their product at the time was relatively innocuous. On the other hand Charles Biro's / Lev Gleason's aggressive endorsement campaign was obnoxious and hypocritical. Of course none of the public figures they trotted out were of Ms Roosevelt's stature. But his parade of cops and social workers (assuming they were real) loudly praised the beneficial effects of Crime Does Not Pay alongside gleeful depictions of amoral gangsters putting bullets through women's heads. Eleanor probably would not have approved of Lev Gleason comics.
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2023, 01:07:49 AM »

Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)

The first thing they all asked was, "What do I have to do?"

When Peter told them "Nothing!" they were all happy to offer their patronage. Maybe it might have been a bit like that with Fawcett?

Just sayin'! ;)
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2023, 05:48:19 AM »

Quote
The first thing they all asked was, "What do I have to do?"
When Peter told them "Nothing!" they were all happy to offer their patronage. Maybe it might have been a bit like that with Fawcett?

I'm absolutely sure that's exactly how it works.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2023, 08:14:52 AM »


Just a word on patronage. When Peter Harvie and I set up the British Blues Archive he approached a number of influential names in the British Blues business to ask for their blessing and would they mind being named as a patron to the Archive. We lined up the late Chris Barber, John Mayall, Paul Jones and Mike Vernon (you might have to Google them if you're not a big Blues fan.)



K1ngcat, you'll be happy to know that I knew of John Mayall, though had to look up the others, and I'm not sure I have the right Paul Jones because there are tons of them. But when I looked up Mike Vernon, I saw that he had worked with Chicken Shack and I actually already knew that Christine Perfect sang with them and that she became Christine McVie. Are you impressed? Well, you may not be as impressed when I say that I knew John Mayall, Christine Perfect/McVie because I was a big fan of the 70s/80s version of Fleetwood Mac. So sorry when Christine McVie passed away recently. I saw her in concert with the Mac three times. She had one of the best voices in the business.

Cheers

QQ
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