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Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment

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topic icon Author Topic: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment  (Read 2464 times)

The Australian Panther

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Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« on: December 25, 2022, 11:21:37 PM »

Robb being indisposed I asked Kingcat to make the choices for the next fortnight and he has chosen to stick with the Christmas theme

{here are my choices for Dec 26th:

Hi readers, while you're wondering what to do with the leftover turkey I'd like to squeeze in three final festive favourites!

Dell's Santa Claus Funnies #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29465

A traditional Night Before Xmas from 1900
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72388

And a seasonal adventure with

Mary Marvel in Wow Comics #9
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=15788

Hope you enjoy them, and the rest of the Holiday Season, a Happy New Year to everyone
All the best
K1ngcat}   
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2022, 05:27:40 AM »

Looks like an interesting mixed bag there, K1ngcat and Panther. Will look forward to getting into it.

Cheers

QQ
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2022, 01:40:11 AM »

Santa Claus Funnies and The Night Before Christmas


I'll talk about these two together, as there was an interesting comparison. The poem The Night Before Christmas is of course well-known. I had a picture book of it as a child, so this brought back some happy memories. The art on the 1900 book is exquisite, and I imagine gives a more faithful rendering of the traditional Santa Claus outfit? Perhaps some of our European friends can enlighten me about whether Santa's outfit resembles the national dress of any particular country? It looks Scandinavian to me. The colour plates in particular are beautiful, and Santa looks so real when he winks at the reader.

The version in Santa Claus Funnies is also quite good, but probably more typical of comic books from the era. Though there was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art.

It was also interesting to compare the version of A Christmas Carol in the Funnies book with the version we read a couple of weeks ago. That latter one had some brilliant black and white art, and stuck more closely to the words of the original, but the one in Funnies probably fits the target age of the children better, with its colour illustrations and simpler language. And poor Tiny Tim is definitely dead in the future in this one, as opposed to that just being hinted at in the other one we read.

I also thought it was interesting to compare the Funnies as a whole to the other Santa books we did the other week. While Santa still appears, this one has a more traditional flavour with fairytales and legends, such as The Fir Tree (I felt sorry for him - sniff) and the tale of how the first Christmas tree came to be. The religious origins of Christmas are noted more explicitly, including lyrics from several Christmas carols. There were also more stories that had a moral, though there were some stories and poems that were just for fun. The art overall was quite good.

Also, since Jingle Bells was included in that book, I thought you might be interested to know that there is an Australian version of Jingle Bells with Aussie lingo. You can read it here.

https://www.flashlyrics.com/lyrics/bucko-champs/aussie-jingle-bells-60

Thanks for the selections, K1ngcat. I'm looking forward to the Mary Marvel one.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2022, 03:55:44 AM »

Quote
Though there was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art.


Funny, I've heard that line a million times and never stopped to consider it. It sounds as if the author back in 1823 conceived of Santa as an elf. Every illustration I've seen shows Santa human-sized. It certainly makes for better visuals and it avoids a sticky question: if Santa is a little old elf, why are the presents he brings full-sized? Do they expand after he sets them down? The Wikipedia entry about the poem is interesting. It discusses Clement Moore's inspirations for his concept of Santa. It also says there has been ongoing controversy about whether Moore or someone else wrote it. Here's a snippet:

The authorship of A Visit is credited to Clement Clarke Moore who is said to have composed it on a snowy winter's day during a shopping trip on a sleigh. His inspiration for the character of Saint Nicholas was a local Dutch handyman as well as the historic Saint Nicholas. Moore originated many of the features that are still associated with Santa Claus today while borrowing other aspects, such as the use of reindeer. The poem was first published anonymously in the Troy, New York Sentinel on 23 December 1823, having been sent there by a friend of Moore, and was reprinted frequently thereafter with no name attached. It was first attributed in print to Moore in 1837. Moore himself acknowledged authorship when he included it in his own book of poems in 1844. By then, the original publisher and at least seven others had already acknowledged his authorship. Moore had a reputation as an erudite professor and had not wished at first to be connected with the unscholarly verse. He included it in the anthology at the insistence of his children, for whom he had originally written the piece.

Moore's conception of Saint Nicholas was borrowed from his friend Washington Irving, but Moore portrayed his "jolly old elf" as arriving on Christmas Eve rather than Christmas Day. At the time that Moore wrote the poem, Christmas Day was overtaking New Year's Day as the preferred genteel family holiday of the season, but some Protestants viewed Christmas as the result of "Catholic ignorance and deception" and still had reservations. By having Saint Nicholas arrive the night before, Moore "deftly shifted the focus away from Christmas Day with its still-problematic religious associations". As a result, "New Yorkers embraced Moore's child-centered version of Christmas as if they had been doing it all their lives."
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2022, 08:47:07 PM »

Nice selections.
THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS was interesting with Santa wearing what looks like flags of emerging nations. From certain angles his hat almost resembles a bike safety helmet. A cautious Santa! Hard to believe the poem is 200 years old next year.

SANTA CLAUS FUNNIES features that Walt Kelly art I always dial up this time of year. Not Pogo, but very enjoyable.
And yeah, Q.Q., I always felt for the tree when I heard this one too. More than a couple of those fairy tales ended badly...The Little Match Girl comes mind. As a kid, I would always make a face and say; “And what was the POINT? The suffering seems pretty meaningless..” (The grown ups would just STARE...)

MARY MARVEL; sort of like a CHRISTMAS SPIRIT episode, huh? When they did the Brie Larson CAPTAIN MARVEL back in 2019, I remembered Mary. I always figured it was an accident of history (and copyright) that she wasn’t sucked into the Marvel universe whole. I ALWAYS wanted MAD to do a parody on those lines, where characters fade in and out of the plot due to copyright restrictions or change appearances altogether. We DID get POGO marching into NANCY with her yelling; “Help Sluggo, we’re being invaded!” The background details and the toys I found really neat to look at.



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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2022, 02:31:55 AM »

Thanks for that extra info Crashryan. I now have visions of mini Santa with a bag of mini toys that expand on contact with the air, like some existing toys that expand on contact with water  :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expandable_water_toy

And Morgus, don't even get me started on the poor little match girl. I remember it being included in a primary school reader. Saddest thing I've ever read. But in a strange way, maybe it one of the things that sparked my lifelong dislike of injustice.

Cheers

QQ
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2023, 11:33:53 AM »


Santa Claus Funnies and The Night Before Christmas


The poem The Night Before Christmas is of course well-known. The art on the 1900 book is exquisite, and I imagine gives a more faithful rendering of the traditional Santa Claus outfit? (1) Perhaps some of our European friends can enlighten me about whether Santa's outfit resembles the national dress of any particular country? It looks Scandinavian to me.

The version in Santa Claus Funnies is also quite good. (2) There was one thing I picked up in the poem (in both) that I'd never noticed before. It specifically says that there was a miniature sleigh, eight tiny reindeer, and a little old driver (Santa). Why were they all so little? And Santa seems to be normal size in the art

Also, since Jingle Bells was included in that book, (3) I thought you might be interested to know that there is an Australian version of Jingle Bells with Aussie lingo.

Cheers

Quirky Quokka


(1) Santa's outfit looks very much like traditional northern Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish clothing, and was the more traditional dress for him among The Scandinavians, Finns (both Suomi and Sami, and Karelians, too), and The north Germans. The miniature size of both Santa and his reindeer come from the blending of the old Northern European pre-Christian 12-day feasting and merriment celebration of Juul (Yule) for the Winter Solstice (return of The Sun), with the Christian celebration of Christ's birth, and later, the addition of Saint Nicholas giving gifts to the poor), mixed with the old Keltic and Germanic legends about the "little people", who left gifts for people who put up with their stealing and shenanigans, and "allowed them to steal food from their pantries" (later having a tradition for leaving food out for them to take and eat in the night). 

(2) The legends of elves and dwarfs come from the distant memories of those much shorter peoples, who populated Europe before The Indo-European peoples arrived there, immigrating into Europe between 3,000 and 4,500 years ago.  The former were shorter, probably because they ate less meat.  And they may actually have been the hunter-gatherers who migrated there after the last ice age ended, from Africa and southern Spain, before The Anatolian Farmers first came 5,000 to 7,000 years ago, pushing them deeper into the forests, and into the mountains, and further west to unoccupied areas.  So, these legends, told by word-of-mouth for a few thousand years had them end up as little people (elves and dwarfs), who lived in forests, under rocks or in underground caves and burrows, and made raids on the farmers' homes only at night, stealing food. 

(2) When the Christian missionaries wanted to convert the pagan Northern European peoples to their religion, they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays.  So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition, and they also mixed that together with commemorating the birth of Christ (2nd most important event in Christianity to his sacrificing himself and resurrection), and the later addition of Greek Priest (St. Nicholas) giving gifts.  Giving gifts was something that could match the Keltic and Germanic traditional legends that "The Little People" gave gifts to farmer families at night while they slept, making shoes for them, cleaning their Non-sleeping rooms, sewing/mending their clothing, and so, the farmers reciprocated by leaving food for them. 

(2) So Santa Claus (Sinterklaas, Father Christmas) was an elf.  Because he was so important, he also had to be big. But, in the earliest few hundred years of the North Europeans' time as Christians, he was an elf, and so, was small.  He also had to be smaller than a full-grown man to come down a chimney flue (but he was later made to be too fat to it down that opening.  Carl Barks's theory on how he performed that trick was demonstrated in his 1949 "Walt Disney's Christmas Parade#1" story "A Letter For Santa", in which the jolly old elf demonstrates how he shrinks himself into his tiny size to fit in the chimneys.  It is interesting that the large bag of toys he carries also shrinks by the same proportions.  After coming out of the fireplace, he springs back to his bigger self. I assume that Little Santa and his shrunken reindeer fly from village to village in their smaller state, so as not to scare airplane pilots! ;D  Here's his revelation:


I find it interesting that The Finns and Sami people have a tradition of "The Yule Man" - or "Father Christmas" carrying his gifts on a sled or sledge, pulled by a goat, rather than reindeer, despite the Suomi and Sami and Karelian peoples being among those few in The World who have domesticated that animal, and use it for transportation, and as a beast of burden.  Here's some evidence:


(3) Because Australia has its Christmas celebration in the heat of Summer, I've always guessed some of Christmas' non-religious songs must have had some or all of their lyrics changed to reflect those differences from the original northern hemisphere Anglo cultures' versions.  And now I see the proof in The Aussie version of "Jingle Bells", and I am not disappointed!  Thanks Quirky! 

I love the artwork and colouring in "The Night Before Christmas".  They are excellent.  I grew up reading such early 1900s books with engraving-style illustrations.  That's really nostalgic for me.

I like the "Santa Claus Funnies' "  version of "A Christmas Carol". The artwork, and choice of scenes from Dickens' original book are very good.  I don't care all that much for the semi-religious or totally religious stories.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 02:16:57 AM by Robb_K »
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2023, 04:20:57 AM »

Was busy the last week. Now catching up.

Santa Claus Funnies 1

Santa Claus In Trouble
North of the North Pole? Does the writer even understand that the North Pole represents the exact point of north on the globe? You can go south of the north pole, but not north. The pole is where north ends.

Jingle Bells
Okay art.

The Night Before Christmas
A nice illustration of the poem.

O Christmas Tree
Nice two-page spread.

The Fir Tree
It's always odd to see stories where trees should be glad to become Christmas trees. Truthfully it's the stuff of a horror story.  ;) But that wouldn't make for a happy little children's story. Okay, if bittersweet story.

Silent Night! Holy Night!
Nice illustration.

A Christmas Carol
This seems familiar.  ;) Tiny Tim says "Good bless us all!" Shouldn't that be God instead? Well, the story was rushed because of the length, but they seemed to hit the important bits.

Lord Octopus Went to the Christmas Fair
Bwha? What a bizarre title. Ummm... okay. Weird premise, but the writer embraced it and it worked.

The First Christmas Tree
Interesting story. On the one hand I was reminded of the old legends of gods disguising themselves as travelers to find good people, then I remembered that one way that Lutheranism diverged from Catholicism was using stories of the Christ child (Kris Kringle) instead of Saint Nicholas.

The First Noel
Okay art.

Santa Claus and the Mouse
Odd little poem, but okay.
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Morgus

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2023, 02:52:44 PM »

Q.Q.:  We watch THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD during the holiday season and play ‘Spot the Stars’. Lots of fun. But it also supplied me with a great story of injustice for you. (Now, first off, we have to say that I have been told this story could NOT have happened, but...a guy who used to work for United Artists thinks it DID...SO...Lay your bets and take your chances...) Japan has, like, a 2 per cent Christian population. subsequently, the idea of Jesus rising from the tomb was seen as The Original Surprise Ending. Audiences got really mad as this Nice Man was killed and very relieved when they got to the plot twist.
BUT...
A group came to Untied Artists and wondered if they could reshoot one scene. Where Pat Boone appears as the angel at the tomb. They explained they thought the angel should be happier. More joyful. They suggested Little Richard. After all, didn’t Pat Boone sing Little Richard songs? It might even get Little Richard to do a Japanese tour...a highly desirable thing in the eyes of some promoters.

There is no record of United Artists reaction to this idea. The ending has not been changed.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2023, 09:28:45 PM »

The Night Before Christmas

Beautiful illustrated version.

Oddly enough I realized I've been misnaming one of the reindeer for most of my life. I always thought it was Donder and Blitzen, not "Dunder and Blitzen".
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crashryan

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2023, 09:35:18 PM »

I've seen Donder, Dunder, and Donner. Donner was the version I learned as a kid.
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2023, 12:11:25 AM »


The Night Before Christmas

Oddly enough I realized I've been misnaming one of the reindeer for most of my life. I always thought it was Donder and Blitzen, not "Dunder and Blitzen".

Scrounge, what you learned was, no doubt, from an American local tradition, based on a Plattdeutsch (northwest German dialect), as the Hochdeutsch (Standard German from 1870 to present) would use:

Donner und Blitzen,

While standard (national) Dutch uses:  "donder en blicksem",

and standard Swedish uses: "dunder och blixt",

and standard Old Frisian and Old English used:  "tonger en wjerljocht" (so, the English Father Christmas tradition must be a very recent phenomenon from the same era as the adoption of burning the Yule logs and placing gifts under the Christmas Tree, brought over from Germany by Queen Victoria during the early mid 1800s, as opposed to the Angles, Frisians, and Lower Saxons bringing over their traditions during their immigrations to Britain during the 400s to 600s AD.  So, these German and Germano-British traditions came to North America with mostly Northern German, Dutch, Swedish, and Norwegian immigrants from the 1600s to about 1900. 

So the famous poem actually reads: "Donner and Blitzen" - taken from the official national German language (which didn't exist before 1870, except as a small regional dialect in east-central Germany, when there was no single German nation, but only many German political sovereign states. 

But "Donder en Blitzen" would be a correct translation of "thunder and lightening" in several northwest German Plattdeutsch dialects.  So, for someone who learned to speak and understand "German" in a town in The Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, or Illinois, and heard that poem, would probably "hear" "Donder en Blitzen", thinking that the speaker, speaking quickly, and casually, dropped the "d" in the normal casual and lazy, less formal slang, which happens naturally in the evolution of languages (which is why no foreigners can understand Danish, because they've steadily dropped most of their consonants over the past 300 years).

Crash, you learned it correctly from the poem. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 08:27:01 AM by Robb_K »
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2023, 01:27:07 AM »

Hi guys. Just checking in, we've been busy "entertaining" all the last week, but I'm glad to see you've all been getting on okay without me butting in. Thanks to you for helping solve the mystery of the shrinking Santa, and special thanks to Morgus for the apocryphal tale about the Angel at the Tomb. Little Richard, eh? I'd love to have seen a gay black angel pounding a piano and singing a song about sodomy !  :o

Looking forward to your reactions to the Mary Marvel tale

All the best
K1ngcat
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2023, 03:50:01 AM »

Wow Comics 9

The Night Before Christmas
Why is Mary calling the woman who raised her Mrs. Bromfield instead of mother or mom?

Page 12, panels 3 & 4. Love those two panels.

You'd think the wisdom of Solomon would have kept Captain Marvel from telling the crook that Mary is his kid sister. Also wasn't she his twin sister or is that a later revelation?

Not bad.

Last Ship From Marseilles
Not bad.

The Mystery of the Make-Believe Mastermind!
Not only does Mr. Scarlet lose his slot as the lead of Wow Comics, his alter ego loses his job as special prosecutor. Hmmm... While it's an interesting twist to have a hero whose alter ego has to worry about making money I'm not sure it really makes for the best stories.

Down Under
Different.

Spooks
Well, that's a bizarre concept. Since DC now owns Fawcett's characters maybe they should team him up with Kid Eternity and Deadman?

The Terrific Toy
Sometimes in old comics it seemed like they made someone a "superhero" solely because superheroes sold. Commando Yank seems like one of these. There is no reason why he wears a mask and he doesn't do anything that wouldn't appear in a normal war comic. Otherwise okay.
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SuperScrounge

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2023, 04:08:25 AM »


I've seen Donder, Dunder, and Donner.

Sounds like a reindeer law firm.  ;)

"For my latest Santa cartoon, I'm being sued by Donder, Dunder, and Donner!"  ;)


Scrounge, what you learned was, no doubt, from an American local tradition, based on a Plattdeutsch (northwest German dialect), as the Hochdeutsch (Standard German from 1870 to present) would use:

Donner und Blitzen,

While standard (national) Dutch uses:  "donder en blicksem",

and standard Swedish uses: "dunder och blixt",

So the famous poem actually reads: "Donner and Blitzen" - taken from the official national German language

Seems like a lot of people telling and retelling (& printing and reprinting) this poem tended to go with the version that seemed right to them.

Reminds me of years ago I was reading an article submitted to my club newsletter (I'm the editor) and I came across the word "illusive" & I thought they had misspelled elusive, then I remembered I had run the spellchecker over the article when I opened the document, so I pulled out my dictionary and learned a new word.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2023, 06:36:46 AM »



(1) Santa's outfit looks very much like traditional northern Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish clothing, and was the more traditional dress for him among The Scandinavians, Finns (both Suomi and Sami, and Karelians, too), and The north Germans. The miniature size of both Santa and his reindeer come from the blending of the old Northern European pre-Christian 12-day feasting and merriment celebration of Juul (Yule) for the Winter Solstice (return of The Sun), with the Christian celebration of Christ's birth, and later, the addition of Saint Nicholas giving gifts to the poor), mixed with the old Keltic and Germanic legends about the "little people", who left gifts for people who put up with their stealing and shenanigans, and "allowed them to steal food from their pantries" (later having a tradition for leaving food out for them to take and eat in the night). 



Thanks for all of that extra info, Robb, including the Karl Barks' explanation. Lots of interesting history there.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2023, 06:39:01 AM »



Santa Claus In Trouble
North of the North Pole? Does the writer even understand that the North Pole represents the exact point of north on the globe? You can go south of the north pole, but not north. The pole is where north ends.

The Fir Tree
It's always odd to see stories where trees should be glad to become Christmas trees. Truthfully it's the stuff of a horror story.  ;) But that wouldn't make for a happy little children's story. Okay, if bittersweet story.

A Christmas Carol
This seems familiar.  ;) Tiny Tim says "Good bless us all!" Shouldn't that be God instead? Well, the story was rushed because of the length, but they seemed to hit the important bits.

The First Christmas Tree
Interesting story. On the one hand I was reminded of the old legends of gods disguising themselves as travelers to find good people, then I remembered that one way that Lutheranism diverged from Catholicism was using stories of the Christ child (Kris Kringle) instead of Saint Nicholas.



Good pick-ups on the stories about the North Pole and the quote from a Christmas Carol, SuperScrounge. I missed those. Thanks for the info about the First Christmas Tree too.
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2023, 06:46:11 AM »


Q.Q.:  We watch THE GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD during the holiday season and play ‘Spot the Stars’. Lots of fun. But it also supplied me with a great story of injustice for you. (Now, first off, we have to say that I have been told this story could NOT have happened, but...a guy who used to work for United Artists thinks it DID...SO...Lay your bets and take your chances...) Japan has, like, a 2 per cent Christian population. subsequently, the idea of Jesus rising from the tomb was seen as The Original Surprise Ending. Audiences got really mad as this Nice Man was killed and very relieved when they got to the plot twist.
BUT...
A group came to Untied Artists and wondered if they could reshoot one scene. Where Pat Boone appears as the angel at the tomb. They explained they thought the angel should be happier. More joyful. They suggested Little Richard. After all, didn’t Pat Boone sing Little Richard songs? It might even get Little Richard to do a Japanese tour...a highly desirable thing in the eyes of some promoters.

There is no record of United Artists reaction to this idea. The ending has not been changed.


Morgus, I love movie trivia, so let's assumed this happened. It's always fun to speculate on what would have happened if different people had played certain roles. I can't imagine Little Richard as the angel. Would be a lot of jumping and screaming going on, but fun to watch. Shirley Temple was the first choice for Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. I love Shirley, but can't imagine anyone but Judy in the role. And a few people were touted for Casablanca before Humphrey Bogart got the nod, including Ronald Reagan. Can you imagine?

And that's interesting about the ending in Japan. One of the Christian missionary organisations had a film that just came to be known as the Jesus movie. It was dubbed into many languages and dialects, and they sometimes showed it in places where people hadn't even seen a movie. Apparently they had to play it once so people could marvel at the technology and then again so they could get the message. A surprise ending indeed.

Thanks for the info.
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2023, 08:06:17 AM »

Actually, I believe that round the beginning of the 20th century when films were taken to places like African or Amazon villages, and the films were silent and black and white, the audiences often could not decipher what they saw on the screen as images of people.   
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K1ngcat

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2023, 01:36:24 AM »


Wow Comics 9

The Mystery of the Make-Believe Mastermind!
Not only does Mr. Scarlet lose his slot as the lead of Wow Comics, his alter ego loses his job as special prosecutor. Hmmm... While it's an interesting twist to have a hero whose alter ego has to worry about making money I'm not sure it really makes for the best stories.


Yes, SS, I'm curious about Mr Scarlet. I know it's standard practice to have someone unusually talented to do the first issue or two before handing the feature over to lesser mortals, but this is strange. Kirby's origin story shows Mr Scarlet as quite edgy, he plainly doesn't mind threatening the use of deadly force, he has a strange quasi-romantic or perhaps sexual relationship with his secretary, and he doesn't try to disguise his moustache when in costume, even though it's a dead giveaway. But within a few issues this rather dark vigilante is saddled with a kid sidekick by the embarrassing name of Pinky and all of a sudden he's not so scary any more.

I have a feeling that Fawcett found him a bit too dark for their otherwise very kid- friendly comics and revamped him accordingly. What is interesting to me is the whole situation you describe in this issue of Wow presages the whole Marvel style of having comics heroes with "real people" problems. Here, he's not much different to a young Peter Parker, having trouble finding a job and wondering where his next meal 's coming from. Maybe the timing for that approach just wasn't right, but I find the comparison interesting.

BTW, the wisdom of Solomon never stopped Captain Marvel from making all kinds of bonehead mistakes,  perhaps Solomon wasn't quite so smart as we've been given to believe!

Anyway thanks for your input, it's always a pleasure!
All the best
K1ngcat
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 01:42:49 AM by K1ngcat »
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Quirky Quokka

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2023, 02:55:07 AM »

Sorry it's taken me a while to get to the Mary Marvel comic, and that was the one I was most interested in. Oh well. Life happens  :)

WOW COMICS

Inside cover

Interesting that they were so concerned about parents approving of these comics, that they had Eleanor Roosevelt and Rear Admiral Byrd on the editorial board. And that was before the official comics book code came in.

Mary Marvel

This was a fun comic, and certainly does reflect the innocence of the time. Can you imagine what we'd say these days if dodgy old Uncle Marvel tried to get into cahoots with a teenage female orphan? Also a bit of an interesting parallel with the early stories of Supergirl in which she lived in an orphanage for a while so people wouldn't know of her existence (or blow Superman's cover). They were both pretty lonely. Also interesting that they ask the readers if they would like Uncle Marvel back? Lots of readers must have written in because he did become part of the Marvel family, and I guess he provides some added humour.

Commander Yank

Okay, I know it's wartime and that the Japanese have bombed Pearl Harbor, but I found it hard to get past the political incorrectness (e.g., Japanese described as 'buckteeth monkeys"). Also, there was condemnation at the thought that the Japanese would round up innocent Americans who had once lived in a little American settlement in Tokyo, but Americans did the same with innocent Japanese on American soil. Okay, so I guess a difference is that the Americans put them in internment camps, whereas these comic book villains are going to toss them  into an active volcano, so that is worse. On a side note, there's a beautiful novel about Japanese Americans in the wake of Pearl Harbor called 'Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet' by Jamie Ford, that is well worth a read if you're interested in that part of history.  Tells the story of a Chinese-American boy who falls in love with a Japanese-American girl, not long before her family is sent off to an internment camp. As for Commando Yank? Well, he's no Captain America. Not crazy about this hero.

That's as far as I've gotten so far.

Cheers

Quirky Quills


« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 07:48:01 AM by Quirky Quokka »
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2023, 05:23:53 AM »

Well, my thoughts on these selections.
First, thank you Robb for your informative comments on traditional Scandinavian clothing and the significance of evles and dwarves in Christmas traditions. I have learned a lot.
However,
Quote
  they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays.  So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition
 
I don't think it was a matter of 'allowing' anybody to do anything, when conversion happened it was the leaders of the converted peoples who made the decisions themselves.
They only changed what was necessary to change and integrated already existing traditions into the Judeo/Christian world view.
And there are other vestiges of the original cultures still extant.
The days of the week, for one example
Sunday, Monday [Moonsday], Tuesday [Tyrs day] Wednesday [Woden's day] Thursday [Thors day] Friday Friggs day] Saturday, [Saturns day]
Quote
Roman gods become Nordic weekday names

The Romans named the days of the week after the Sun and the Moon and five planets, which were also the names of their gods.
The gods and planets were Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.

In the Nordic countries, the Sun (Sunday) and the Moon (Monday) also became the first two days of the week, and the Roman gods became four of the Nordic gods with similarities:

Mars became Tyr (Tuesday), Mercury became Odin (Wednesday), Jupiter became Thor (Thursday) and Venus became Frigg (Friday). Saturday came outside the system: The Norse form 'Saturday' means 'hot water day' - which can be translated as 'washing day' or 'washing water day'. 

https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-age-people/the-names-of-the-weekdays
And thanks Robb for the Barks visual quotes. 
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2023, 06:03:13 AM »

Dell's Santa Claus Funnies #1
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29465

Santa Claus in Trouble (12 pages)
The Art and Story-telling are excellent, but the story is too wordy and that spoils it.
This is the standard pre-Christmas story - someone is out to spoil/delay/destroy Christmas. Will Santa make it?

The Night Before Christmas
Nice Work! A lot of good detail in the art and good colouring too.
O Christmas Tree
Was Clement Moore the artist on this one too? Geat visuals.
The Fir Tree (8 pages)
Credits   Script: Hans Christian Andersen (credited) | Pencils: Walt Kelly | Inks: Walt Kelly 

Good combination of creative spirits. There is always something melancholy about Hans Anderson's stories, but Walt Kelly does a good job of it.
Silent Night! Holy Night!
Excellent Visuals again. Not something you would see in a comic today. Unfortunately.
A Christmas Carol
Another adaption. Good, but not outstanding.
Lord Octopus Went to the Christmas Fair
Walt Kelly, artist.
High quality filler.
The First Christmas Tree (6 pages)
Don't know anything about the origins of this story, but it fits well here.
The first Noel
No artist credited.
Santa and the Mouse
I find myself wondering what inspired Emile Poulsson to write this?
Did he have a stocking with a hole in it when he was a child?
This is a high quality effort of its time, done with a lot of love.     
cheers!
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The Australian Panther

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2023, 06:17:30 AM »

A traditional Night Before Xmas from 1900
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=72388
I haven't got much to say about this that hasn't already been said, 

Great choice Kingcat, thanks for posting it.
Do we have any idea who the artist was?
On one page we have a vertical signature whiich I can't make out, which seems to read NOELL TO(?)S, on another we have just N.T. 
Anybody know?
cheers     
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Robb_K

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Re: Reading Group # 287 - Christmas 3nd Installment
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2023, 10:10:08 AM »



First, thank you Robb for your informative comments on traditional Scandinavian clothing and the significance of evles and dwarves in Christmas traditions. 
However,
Quote
  they had to allow them to keep their most important traditions and holidays.  So, they were allowed to keep their (most important) winter solstice feasting holiday and Yule Log tradition
 
I don't think it was a matter of 'allowing' anybody to do anything, when conversion happened it was the leaders of the converted peoples who made the decisions themselves.
They only changed what was necessary to change and integrated already existing traditions into the Judeo/Christian world view.
And there are other vestiges of the original cultures still extant.
The days of the week, for one example
Sunday, Monday [Moonsday], Tuesday [Tyrs day] Wednesday [Woden's day] Thursday [Thors day] Friday Friggs day] Saturday, [Saturns day]
Quote
Roman gods become Nordic weekday names

The Romans named the days of the week after the Sun and the Moon and five planets, which were also the names of their gods.
The gods and planets were Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn.

In the Nordic countries, the Sun (Sunday) and the Moon (Monday) also became the first two days of the week, and the Roman gods became four of the Nordic gods with similarities:

Mars became Tyr (Tuesday), Mercury became Odin (Wednesday), Jupiter became Thor (Thursday) and Venus became Frigg (Friday). Saturday came outside the system: The Norse form 'Saturday' means 'hot water day' - which can be translated as 'washing day' or 'washing water day'. 

https://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/professions/education/viking-age-people/the-names-of-the-weekdays
And thanks Robb for the Barks visual quotes.


My point was that the existing Christian authorities wouldn't have gotten the members of the various pagan tribes and peoples to convert to Christianity, unless they found a way to entice them to enter the fold by "allowing" pagan holidays and festivals to be continued to be celebrated, under the "guise" of Christianity, and The early Christians even changed the dates of their holidays to match those of the most important pagan holidays, when there still wasn't total agreement among the leaders of The Early Church in the various different parts of The Roman Empire.  Later, in several different countries, Church authorities became very harsh with their flock, when they backslid into old pagan ways, which were not traditionally accepted by The Church in the earlier days.  I believe that the institution of Sainthood was partly begun to incorporate the worship or showing high reverence for people in a community's past, or, at least, taking the place of worship of heroes from the past. Christ's birthdate (which was originally believed to be in April, or at least, some time in spring) was changed to The Winter Solstice, because that was generally the most important holiday among pagan peoples.  The Resurrection was set at Passover, because that was the most important holiday for The Judaens (Jews), and Christianity was a fringe Jewish sect.  The Catholic Church tolerated The Aztec and Maya   peoples' celebrating The Day of The Dead and in Mexico, El Dia De Los Muertos and its following celebration day were matched to the Catholic All Saints Day and its following, All Souls Day.  That was during the time that The Spanish Inquisition was torturing blasphemers, and any Spanish Empire subjects who were not following the Spanish Catholic rituals perfectly, sliding back into pagan practices, or Jewish , or Moslem rites, after converting, so as to remain in Spain and its territories and colonies, instead of being banished to Moslem territory in Africa or Asia, or being murdered by he authorities if staying without officially converting.    A similar leniency that was given to new converts in Mexico, was shown to The Scandinavians, and Slavs, at least, during the early conversion periods.  Yes, it is true that later, the individual national churches of each country tolerated the pagan traditions being woven into a blending the Christian traditions, knowing that was the only way to procure mass conversion of their nations' populaces. 
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