[Downunder Dan]

Hi all,

I’ve been asked to host this fortnight’s reading group. I post here as Downunder Dan (having learned the importance of alliterative names from comics). I started visiting this site about a year ago, and have been contributing scans of (mostly) Australian comics. But while this particular reading group starts in Australia (with a book I scanned), most of the stories will reflect the majority of this site and be American.

The theme is Iron Outlaws.

Australians learn about our most famous bushranger and folk hero, Ned Kelly, from a young age. Bushrangers were essentially outlaws who’d rob banks, vehicles and people to get money. Because Australia was essentially a penal colony, the outlaws were cherished by the common folk - at least, until they got robbed by them! Views on Ned Kelly and his gang range from them being brutal thugs all the way to regarding them as being like Robin Hood. Ned Kelly appears to have inspired people in other countries, at least when it comes to making up interesting villains.

The first comic of this group is a biographical one, The Kelly Gang Rides https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=95755. It’s not the kind of biography that doesn’t let facts get in the way of the story, but it does tell the history in broad strokes. If you know nothing about the Kelly Gang, this one will help!

My second choice is a two-part Dynamo story from THUNDER Agents #1 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=64781. In this story, the iron outlaw is the Iron Maiden. The first part starts on page 8 and the second part on page 56. While my childhood comic reading was dominated by Marvel and DC, I did have two Tower Comics issues that I especially treasured. (I note that this issue was discussed in the Reading Group for week 154, but the Iron Maiden barely rated a mention in that discussion.)

My third choice is a short one, set in the Wild West. The story is called the Iron Men, and it’s in Dead-Eye Western #8 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=17399. If these suits of armour weren’t directly inspired by the Kelly Gang, I’ll eat Dan Kelly’s helmet!

Last choice, it's back to super-heroes, as Spy Smasher takes on the Man in the Iron Mask in Spy Smasher #4 https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=40234. The story starts on page 23.

What do you think about these stories, and of Iron Outlaws in general?

[Quirky Quokka]

Hi Downunder Dan

That sounds like an interesting theme. I'll look forward to getting into those.

Cheers

QQ

[SuperScrounge]

The Kelly Gang Rides

The Kelly Gang Rides
Gee, what a nice guy trooper Fitzpatrick is. How do the women resist him?

I wonder if the reason why each page has a title is because it started off as a newspaper comic (or is trying to look like one)?

Never heard the term "Bail up" and does this story overuse it.

Hmm, I thought the Kelly gang used the armor in more than just in their final battle.

Interesting, I'd heard bits and pieces about Ned Kelly although not a beginning to end one like this.


Thunder King of the Gorilla Empire

Another Tarzan knock-off.

The 'triceratops' is drawn like Charles Knight's Agathaumus which didn't actually exist. Also triceratops was a vegetarian.

Amazing that the young mammoth knows what blowing through a severed tusk sounds like.


Blitzie Bessie the Cow

Eh, not much of a story.


Dicky Lea the Flea

Not as good as Blitzie Bessie.


THUNDER Agents #1

I won't go through the whole issue, since I did that in Week 154, but since Dan wanted us to focus on the Iron Maiden I will look at those stories.

First my comment from Week 154
"Menace of the Iron Fog - Not bad, could have used a lot more shots of Iron Maiden though.  "

Wood was a master of drawing beautiful women.

What's interesting is how the Iron Maiden seems to be wearing skin-tight armor. One wonders how she deals with chafing. Knights of old would suffer from rust building up inside the suit. Apparently sometimes when taking off their armor the knight would be red from rust particles. Presumably the Iron Maiden must have some kind of super-advanced iron-like metal that doesn't rust.

Although, there is an alternative theory. Since she commands a robot squad, maybe she's a cyborg? What appears to be a suit of armor is actually a cybernetic body to carry her head around? Maybe someone who's read later issues knows?

[crashryan]

Scrounge, I don't remember in which issue, but at least once "Rusty" appears in street clothes. As I recall Dynamo didn't recognize her. As for rust--maybe she wears stainless steel?

[Downunder Dan]

Iron Maiden in civvies (and not)...



From THUNDER Agents #7 - as you'll probably infer from this page, there's an attempt to make Len Brown (Dynamo) look like a traitor.

One of the dynamics in the Dynamo series is a love triangle, with Len drawn willingly to the wholesome Alice Robbins (Len's boss's secretary) and unwillingly to the femme fatale Iron Maiden.

@SuperScrounge I think you were the only one to mention the Iron Maiden is the previous Reading Group discussion, which was a big oversight! Also look for George Perez's take on the Iron Maiden for a similar but different great portrayal

[SuperScrounge]

Thanks, Crash and Dan! 

Dead-Eye Western #11

The Arkansas Toothpick
Interesting story, but the art wasn't as good as it should have been.


The Ironmen
It looks like the cover artist used the three figures on the splash page for the three figures on the cover with a few changes.

Yeah, I think the writer was familiar with the Ned Kelly legend. Some story elements just seemed a little to similar.

Odd that none of the men seemed to complain about the force of the bullets hitting the metal, not to mention the ringing that should happen if a bullet hit the helmet.


The Slayer of the Grizzlies
Interesting, but he hunts one grizzly and is nearly killed then turns it into a hobby/profession? Seems like we missed a step somewhere. 


The Outlaw's Kid
Kind of a depressing story. Kid tries to do right and nobody cares.


The Last Ditch
Interesting. Although I would say the men outlasted the enemy, as it was the additional forces that overcame them.


The Best Horseman in Ohio
Wow, that title looks odd. All that empty space under Horseman. They either should have centered the second line or picked a state with a longer name. 


The Man Who Didn't Know Indians
Walker's an unpleasant pain. We're forced to read about this a-hole, but his whole redemption is rushed and feels crammed on the last page. Almost like the writer was saying, "Don't worry about those dead people, we're telling you he'll be a better person!"

[SuperScrounge]

Spy Smasher #4

The Crime of Pearl Harbor!
Just before I read this I'd like to say that I think it tends to be a mistake to try to mash up superheroes and real-life tragedies. Generally I think it's better to just say the hero was busy elsewhere rather than at, or near, the scene of the tragedy. But now I'll read the story and see what I think of this effort.

Okay, this one wasn't as bad as I feared it would be. By establishing a larger threat that the hero stops preventing it from being a bigger tragedy was a good choice for a story.


The Man in the Iron Mask!
It's amazing in comics how many castles have been moved from Europe to America. It's amazing Europe has any castles left it is such a comic book trope. 

Spy Smasher hits the Man in the Iron Mask with his left hand, but it's his right hand that goes numb? 

That's not a pike, that's a mace. Didn't the artist know the difference?

Not a bad story. Although it draws more from The Man in the Iron Mask than it does from the armored knights of the other stories.

Reading it I thought a better title would have been The Spy in the Iron Mask as that would fit in better with Spy Smasher. Ah, well.


Murder Tests a Bomber
Okay.


Thrilling Spy Tales
Not bad.


Old Soldiers March Again!
The Daily Star? Were the reporters Kent or Lane? 

Dr. Marston??? Wonder Woman's creator? 

Cute story.


The Stolen Battleship!
Okay.

---

Armored bandits in general.

Clearly the inspiration in both real life and fiction was European knights. The knights wore armor for protection, but some people seem to ignore that the protection from armor was not absolute. Even before guns there were things that could pierce armor, I believe crossbow bolts could, and spiked weapons like a bec du corbin were designed to get through armor. But the stories usually had the armor deflect bullets when some of them should have pierced the armor. (I watch a YouTube channel called Taofledermaus where they shoot various projectiles at various things including sheets of metal and bullet resistant vests.) Writers also tend to forget that even if the bullet doesn't penetrate the metal the person wearing it should feel the hit.

[The Australian Panther]

Scrounge said,

Writers also tend to forget that even if the bullet doesn't penetrate the metal the person wearing it should feel the hit. 

They also tend to assume that when 'Blanks' are fired at a body they don't do any damage. They might not penetrate but they can cause serious injury at least.     

[Downunder Dan]

My encounter with Ned Kelly's armour

I was visiting Melbourne about 7 years ago, and I came face-to-lack-of-face with Ned Kelly's armour. It looks like this:



It's on display in the State Library of Victoria. And, as you can see, there are a number of bullet-sized dents caused by being shot by bullets. The armour is about 6mm thick (approx. a quarter inch). You can see SuperScrounge's point on the the impact of bullets even on a well-armoured person.

While I was still in that area of the library, two young women cam in to look at the armour. Their main curiosity was why there was only one boot. So I told them a lie. I said that there are two boots, but one was being used elsewhere. Police were going door-to-door, making men try on the boot because, whosoever the boot did fit would be Ned Kelly.

[SuperScrounge]

They also tend to assume that when 'Blanks' are fired at a body they don't do any damage. They might not penetrate but they can cause serious injury at least.

Yeah, actor Jon Eric Hexam accidentally killed himself thinking that blanks were harmless.

Although Jack Lemon had a funny story about blanks. The director didn't like the sound of the blanks being fired because they were only a quarter of the powder for a regular bullet, so he ordered it increased to a half-charge. When the show went on Jack accidentally fired the blank into another actor's butt and when the shot actor realized he was bleeding he screamed "He shot me in the ass!" all on live TV.

Nice photo of the armor, Dan.

So I told them a lie. I said that there are two boots, but one was being used elsewhere. Police were going door-to-door, making men try on the boot because, whosoever the boot did fit would be Ned Kelly.

LOL! 

[Quirky Quokka]

The Kelly Gang Rides

It was interesting to see the main points of the story told, and I learned something. I thought it was a bit far-fetched that Ma Kelly hit the trooper with a shovel, so I looked it up. Apparently she did attack a trooper with a shovel and was sentenced to three years in prison for her crime, which was one of the things that set Ned and the others on their course. Though Ned had already had his own run-ins with the law and had spent some prison time before that.

I had to laugh at the way Kate Kelly was depicted on the very first page. It's a homestead in the Australian bush in the 1870s, but she's wearing a figure-hugging knee-length dress and court shoes (pumps). Yep, that would definitely work! Ned also appears to be clean-shaven throughout, but the famous photos/drawings of of him show a long bushy beard. The art as a whole wasn't great, but it did the job. I'm sure kids in the 1940s would have much rather read this comic than a history textbook. I felt the writing didn't bring out the cult hero status so much or dig too much into the backstory of injustices that led to some of Ned's actions. Though I guess they had to show that crime doesn't pay, and I'm not excusing his actions. But he had a lot of supporters back in the day.

As luck would have it, I read this story yesterday afternoon and then last night watched the new episode of 'Great Australian Walks' on TV. It so happened that the walk they dealt with was in Beechworth, where there is actually a Ned Kelly Walking Tour, and they talked to one of the historians there. It includes the courthouse where Ned was tried, among other things. It was also famous during the gold rush era, which provided lots of  gold and loot for Ned to steal.

https://www.explorebeechworth.com.au/listing/beechworth-historic-walking-tours-beechworth/

Many years ago, I visited Glenrowan, which is the site of the last gun battle which saw Ned finally arrested. You can see the big Ned Kelly and a museum, among other things.

https://nedkellytouringroute.com.au/destinations/glenrowan/

So for better or worse, Ned is still big business in some parts of Australia, and has an enduring fascination.

Thanks for the selection, Dan.

QQ

[Morgus]

Now you see, I lost interest in the Ned Kelly story right away after I got a look at him. NOT accurate. Everybody KNOWS he looks like Mick Jagger.

It’s always nice to have a reason to read the Thunder Agents. Lots of fun. Great art. Anybody else wonder what it would have been like if the line had made it?

You win, ‘Dan. That is a total copy of the Kelly suit.

Spy Smasher is another sure bet as a time suck. You want to just read that ONE story and wind up reading the whole thing. And there’s the ol’ Red Ryder rifle...

[Downunder Dan]

It’s always nice to have a reason to read the Thunder Agents. Lots of fun. Great art. Anybody else wonder what it would have been like if the line had made it?

Me for one. There's been a number of attempts to revive the THUNDER Agents, but all have failed for one reason or another. If you can find them, the 5 issues published by Deluxe Comics are the best (in my opinion). But all have some degree of updating, which can be a bit of a barrier if you were really wanting to read a continuation of the original. I'll always have a soft spot for the characters, but not for all the later depictions.

[Quirky Quokka]

Now you see, I lost interest in the Ned Kelly story right away after I got a look at him. NOT accurate. Everybody KNOWS he looks like Mick Jagger.

LOL - One of the weirdest pieces of casting in history. Here's the trailer for Mick's version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8i0CoDnnbY

But if you really want to get your film buff on, here's a remix of the remaining fragments of the 1906 film 'Story of the Kelly Gang' which is believed to be the first feature length film (at around 1 hour running time originally). The first three mins of this remix has written cards explaining how they put this version together from the fragments that remain. The movie starts at about the 2:54 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6niZmzvoc

Cheers

QQ

[Morgus]

‘Dan, THAT’S what I mean. So many people have tried to re-create it, and it is maddening that not enough people bought it the first time.

Q.Q: love it when vintage films finally come to light. Gives me hope against hope that lost masterpieces might still be found...but the hope gets a bit dimmer every year...

[The Australian Panther]

The reason that silent film is so hard to find, is that the film itself was chemically unstable and flammable.
Only might turn up if it's found in somewhere like Alaska or buried deep in someone's cellar with no exposure to air.

Re Ned Kelly, there was this.

Reckless Kelly Widescreen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNgJpIynLJ0

Who says Australians don't have a sense of humor? 

Might recognize a face or two.

cheers!   

[Downunder Dan]

When I started this, one of the things I wondered was 'what people think about Iron Outlaws generally'.

We're slightly hampered here, as probably the best known characters of this type, Doctor Doom, isn't in the public domain. (Yes, there are many others...)

In creating the list of stories, I broke this type of character into four sub-types:

1. Robot - an enormous group, and hard to select a typical stories as robots range from animated tools of the villain through to actual intelligent villains in their own rights. Robots could be a topic for discussion in their own right - possibly several discussions!

2. Man in Armour - in adventure stories, villains with great defences add to the difficulty in our heroes overcoming them. Having recently uploaded a Ned Kelly story, he seemed a good place to start. In doing some Kelly research, I found a list of allegedly Kelly-inspired comics (some were very large stretches). A common feature of a Man in Armour story is how they are overcome.

3. Man in the Iron Mask - a different historical basis, from 17th Century France. A prisoner of King Louis XIV had his identity and reason for imprisonment concealed from the vast majority of the population, and we still don't know who or why this happened. (It is also thought he didn't have a iron mask, but rather one made of velvet - but that doesn't make as good a story). In comics, there's a bit of a crossover with the Man in Armour type, but a good Man in the Iron Mask story has the mystery of the man's identity as a central feature.

4. Half-Man Half-Machine - Like the Man in Armour, except there's a merging. Cyborgs are more frightening (a loss of humanity is a concern), the inability to catch the villain with their defences down, and often a tragic backstory that leads to a desire for revenge is a frequent feature. I didn't include a cyborg story in this reading group as they are more common in comics of a more recent vintage than in the public domain period.

The Iron Outlaw character type cover all four of these to an extent, but the sub-categories lend themselves to certain types of stories.

[Morgus]

‘Dan, American comedian Steve Allen used to say there were only 9 different types of jokes, and I bet there is a similar low number for man mixed with machine. Like one writer once told me in the late 70’s when super heroes were in a slump; ‘You can’t sell Superman to kids anymore. But make him a Bionic Man and you have a market..”

‘Panther there is a story about how the guys from Kodak nearly fainted when they went to see Buster Keaton to get a look at his original (nitrate stock) negatives. He was blithely smoking right beside the film and holding it up to the light as he puffed away.
Wow.

[Quirky Quokka]

When I started this, one of the things I wondered was 'what people think about Iron Outlaws generally'.

We're slightly hampered here, as probably the best known characters of this type, Doctor Doom, isn't in the public domain. (Yes, there are many others...)

In creating the list of stories, I broke this type of character into four sub-types:

1. Robot - an enormous group, and hard to select a typical stories as robots range from animated tools of the villain through to actual intelligent villains in their own rights. Robots could be a topic for discussion in their own right - possibly several discussions!

2. Man in Armour - in adventure stories, villains with great defences add to the difficulty in our heroes overcoming them. Having recently uploaded a Ned Kelly story, he seemed a good place to start. In doing some Kelly research, I found a list of allegedly Kelly-inspired comics (some were very large stretches). A common feature of a Man in Armour story is how they are overcome.

3. Man in the Iron Mask - a different historical basis, from 17th Century France. A prisoner of King Louis XIV had his identity and reason for imprisonment concealed from the vast majority of the population, and we still don't know who or why this happened. (It is also thought he didn't have a iron mask, but rather one made of velvet - but that doesn't make as good a story). In comics, there's a bit of a crossover with the Man in Armour type, but a good Man in the Iron Mask story has the mystery of the man's identity as a central feature.

4. Half-Man Half-Machine - Like the Man in Armour, except there's a merging. Cyborgs are more frightening (a loss of humanity is a concern), the inability to catch the villain with their defences down, and often a tragic backstory that leads to a desire for revenge is a frequent feature. I didn't include a cyborg story in this reading group as they are more common in comics of a more recent vintage than in the public domain period.

The Iron Outlaw character type cover all four of these to an extent, but the sub-categories lend themselves to certain types of stories.

Interesting groupings, Dan. Where would you place Iron Man? He's more than just a man wearing armour, as his armour is helping to keep his heart alive and has lots of devices of its own, but he's not a cyborg either? He's my favourite in the 'man with armour' category.

Cheers

QQ

[Downunder Dan]

Iron Man? Definitely a little from column A, a little from column B.

Back at the beginning, when Stark still had shrapnel in his chest and would have died if he removed his chestplate or its power was exhausted, he was definitely in the cyborg/man-machine category.

As time went by, that ongoing issue was resolved (although I recall a number of similar issues arising from time to time) he's been more of an armoured man. But the standard secret identity issues means he's been a man in the iron mask, too. (And ten there's the times when others have worn the suit, adding to the mystery.)

Heroes are often more complicated than the villains. Because we follow them issue after issue, rather than them turning up now and then, it's not surprising the heroes are more of a mixed bag.

[Quirky Quokka]

Thanks for the explanation of Iron Man, Dan. That makes sense.

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents #1

Ads - I couldn't go past the ads on p. 2. An authentic working model 'Old West' scaffold? "Really works ... just like a real execution ...Executioner pulls the lever and the body falls till the hangman's noose jerks it to a stop." This is so bad, it's hilarious. Can just see one of those under the Christmas tree, and can imagine lots of little boys gleefully hanging their sisters' Barbie dolls. Even for the times, it seems weird. Now for the comic book.

The Cover and Origin Story

I love the cover. That would get me in. We know we're in for the exploits of a superhero team.
I read the origin story. So the agents go into the cave and discover Professor Jennings dead. Had to laugh when one of them says, 'We shouldn't have left him alone! The greatest mind in the free world!' Yep, some security would have been a good idea. LOL

On p. 3, the agents say they haven't worked out the secrets of the devices or how they work, yet in the next three panels they explain exactly what they do.

Menace in the Fog - Part 1

p. 3 - If the thunderbelt attunes itself to Len's metabolism so that only he can use it, how were they able to test it to find out how it worked? Presumably that would have attuned it to the tester's body?

p. 7 - How exactly did the thunderbelt stop him from plummeting to earth? Not sure how smashing through bricks broke his fall.

Others have already commented on the Iron Maiden's figure-hugging armour. Definitely some chafing happening there, and she always manages to strike a fashion model's pose. Essential for evil characters 

Menace in the Fog - Part 2

p. 2 - So the Iron Maiden's been trying to get the info out of Dynamo and it doesn't occur to her to twiddle the dial until the last panel on p. 2?

p. 7 - Must be a pretty good laser gun to take out all those missiles with one shot.

On the last page, it's thrown in that the Iron Maiden escaped in one of her planes, but there was nothing in the art to show that. Seems like an easy way to dispense with her presence.

Plot problems aside, I did enjoy this comic. The art was good and it's a promising team. The writing could use some work--not as much fun as a Stan Lee script-- but I'd be interested in reading more of these.

Thanks for the selection, Dan.

Also just a question for you comic book experts - I don't know a lot about Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., but I wondered if they got some of their inspiration (or used any of the ideas) from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, apart from having a fancy acronym?

Cheers

QQ

[SuperScrounge]

Well, it looks like SHIELD (1968) appeared 3 years after THUNDER (1965), although in 1964 TV first aired The Man From UNCLE, so maybe one or both were inspired by the TV show.

Kind of interesting that THUNDER and Doctor Who's UNIT both use the United Nations in their names. I do know that when Doctor Who was revived in 2005 the UN had changed it's stance on having their name used and Russel T. Davis changed the acronym to the UNited Intelligence Taskforce. So I guess if someone did try to Revive THUNDER Agents they'd have to change what the UN in their name stands for.

[The Australian Panther]

  I don't know a lot about Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., but I wondered if they got some of their inspiration (or used any of the ideas) from T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, apart from having a fancy acronym? 

Most of the inspiration for both Thunder Agents and SHIELD came from UNCLE [As in 'The man from.....']
Which was huge at the time.
But Kirby wasn't limited in his sources of inspiration. I've pointed out elsewhere that the  SHIELD Helicarrier was a steal from Jules Verne's 'Robur the Conqueror' 

I'd be interested in reading more of these.

 
There are quite a lot more. But!
The copyright situation with 'Thunder Agents' has always been a mess.
Takes too long to explain it, the details are here.
T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.H.U.N.D.E.R._Agents

The three best attempts at a new Thunder Agents comic are:-
1/ The Deluxe comics series.
2/ The DC comics 10 issues. [and the mini-series]
3/ The IDW 8 issues
We haven't seen the last of them.
       

[Quirky Quokka]

SuperScrounge said:

Well, it looks like SHIELD (1968) appeared 3 years after THUNDER (1965), although in 1964 TV first aired The Man From UNCLE, so maybe one or both were inspired by the TV show.

And Panther said:

Most of the inspiration for both Thunder Agents and SHIELD came from UNCLE [As in 'The man from.....'
Which was huge at the time.

Ah, that makes sense. I think I've only watched a couple of episodes of 'The Man from U.N.C.L.E.' in reruns, so I'm not that familiar with it, except that it was inspired by the Cold War. (I was probably watching 'The Flintstones' and 'The Jetsons' when new episodes were running.) In Australia, we seemed to get a lot more reruns of 'Get Smart' than 'The Man from U.N.C.L.E.', so I'm much more familiar with the Cone of Silence 

SuperScrounge said:

Kind of interesting that THUNDER and Doctor Who's UNIT both use the United Nations in their names. I do know that when Doctor Who was revived in 2005 the UN had changed it's stance on having their name used and Russel T. Davis changed the acronym to the UNited Intelligence Taskforce. So I guess if someone did try to Revive THUNDER Agents they'd have to change what the UN in their name stands for.

Super, I'm a big Dr Who fan and I had forgotten what UNIT stood for. Interesting that they had to change what the acronym stood for. Alas, I've now said goodbye to the Doctor, as it's moved to Disney-Plus and I already pay too many subscriptions, though we did do the free trial so we could see the three new specials with David Tennant.

Panther said:

The copyright situation with 'Thunder Agents' has always been a mess.
Takes too long to explain it, the details are here.
T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.H.U.N.D.E.R._Agents

The three best attempts at a new Thunder Agents comic are:-
1/ The Deluxe comics series.
2/ The DC comics 10 issues. [and the mini-series]
3/ The IDW 8 issues
We haven't seen the last of them.

 
Wow, that is complicated. I'm amazed we were able to get any on this site. Thanks for the tips.

Cheers

QQ

[Downunder Dan]

I'll work my way through these stories backwards over the next couple of days.

Spy Smasher in The Man in the Iron Mask.

Earlier I laid out what I would expect in a man in the iron mask story, and I have to say this one's a failure. While the identity of our villain is a mystery, it's ultimately unimportant. He's an unknown Nazi organist.

But this story is actually a Phantom of the Opera story. That's where most of the story beats come from - well, other than the brief dip into the Pit and the Pendulum. It does that quite well.

As a story, outside of the Iron Outlaw aspect, I agree with Morgus - Spy Smasher is a good combination of story and art, it's hard to stop at one story.