[JVJ]

I don't know either, Cimmerian,
Not trying to evade the question, but it's been so long since I've used PS7 I couldn't begin to suggest how to get a better or a different results. Sorry. I will tell you that while Brightness/Contrast APPEARS to give satisfactory results, it does so at the expense of your overall color gamut. Perhaps that's one of the causes. Have you tried applying your corrections/adjustments on Adjustment Layers? They work EXACTLY like the straight [Image][Adjustments] but are reversible and adjustable later on. I think MOST of the adjustments are available in that form and you can also adjust the opacity of the adjustment. Just click on the half-white/half-black circle at the bottom of the Layers Palette and proceed as you always have.

For what it's worth, I tried a few adjustments using Curves and Hue/Saturation and, without proposing this to be a replacement for your efforts, I came up with very consistent color levels in most of the "whites". Witness:


Here are the numbers:


If you guys want me to shut up about colors, just say so. I'm easy. But if you want some tips, I've played around a LOT with color adjustments and may be able to help.

[OtherEric]

Please keep talking, Jim.  Like I said, this is currently well beyond my skill level.  But even if I can't apply this stuff immediately, some of it might stick and help me later.  Or I can come back and re-read the thread after I get better.  And even beyond that it's fascinating as both theory and practice in how to clean up old books.

[Yoc]

I've been using PS7 and never noticed the Adjustment Layers before - I gotta check that out.
Nice work Jim, I can see your point now that you're posting examples.  And Cimm, I've never used your method of tints either.  I've always played with colour levels, contrasts and saturations.

Thanks for the very interesting info and examples guys!
-Yoc the novice scanner

[JVJ]

 You'll LOVE 'em. Yoc,
One great use for them is to make an adjustment that is way wacky, like turning all of the Greens really bright (say by using the Hue/Saturation adjustment), and then using the [Select][Color Selection] to pick up those Greens in a selection. Then you can just delete the Adjustment Layer to get your original scan colors back and use your selection for an Adjustment Layer Mask (just invoke an Adjustment Layer with a selection and you'll only effect the areas you have selected) to modify the Greens the way you really want them. I played with the greens on the Strange Worlds 5 cover as an example (you probably noticed that Cimmerian's version had [and still has] nicer greens on the BEM than any of mine):


You can use them to good effect when replacing or correctly large areas like the blue background on this cover, which both cimmerian and I replaced. (I used a pattern made from the clean area in the center of the cover. I don't know how cimmerian did it.) Several Adjustment Layers, like Hue/Saturation, Levels, Curves (which are scary at first, but ultimately the most powerful of all of them), and Color Balance work on individual channels (Red, Green and Blue) so you can use them to make subtle and/or universal changes to each color.

I tell people that I know from 6 to 10% of Photoshop, so don't think I'm an expert. I just have really focused over the years on color correction and de-screening for my magazine, so I have a bit of experience in those areas. Nothing that I know is especially hard to understand. What's hard to understand is the book, Professional Photoshop: The Classic Guide to Color Correction (fifth edition) by Dan Margulis which I'm trying to wade through. It's terribly daunting and if you're feeling out of your depth with MY discussions, Margulis makes me feel like a mewling baby when it comes to color. It's SCARY, but I want to know more than I do and the only way to accomplish that is to get in over MY head.

Play with the Adjustment Layers. You'll be surprised at what you'll learn. And the very best part of it all is that you NEVER change a pixel of your original scan.

[JVJ]

For some reason, probably because I screwed it up, the example didn't show up. Here is the modified green example mentioned in my previous post:


Sorry, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Thanks Jim, I'll certainly be looking into all of this!
What I've always been doing to protect myself and making a duplicate layer of the original scan and only working on it while leaving the original at the bottom should I ever need to return to it.

Phantom Lady 19 is Easily the biggest job I've ever taken on.  Each page has Very Poor colour registration so I've been using the clone tool to try and correct things so it's at least marginally better to see.  My hope is your suggestions might speed up the process in some way.  I believe we talked about it in an old thread I started on the subject some time back.

I'm completely self taught on PS, never read a book or anything but I have been given some good advice by the likes of Rolster, Rammercrammer, Cimm and yourself and I'm always ready to try and learn more.

-Yoc

[JVJ]

The book I just put down is giving me a headache, Yoc.
I just finished chapter 3 (of 20) and I want to either quit and throw the book (and $45) away or else start all over again at chapter 1 and hope I'll get it the second time.

What you've been doing is smart, but it's at the expense of disc space. An Adjustment Layer is just a mathematical equation that is being overlaid on the scan. A duplicate layer DOUBLES the size of your file. The Strange Worlds 5 cover I took from Eric's original scan is 2.12 MB as a psd file open in PS. When I duplicate the background layer, the file size becomes 4.23 MB. It's doubled.

But if I add a couple of adjustment layers for Levels and Color Balance, the size of the file is STILL 2.12 MB. And if I add a blank layer above the Background and make all my pixel corrections on that layer, my file might get up to 3 MB by the time I've finished fixing things. And I still won't have altered a pixel. When I'm done, I'll save the file and then flatten it, adjust the resolution and sharpen it if necessary and then save it for the web as a jpeg. Then I'll close the file WITHOUT SAVING the final alterations. So I'll end up with one 3 MB psd or tiff file and one 200 KB jpg, whereas you're starting out with a file half again as large as my final one. If YOU add layers it'll be even worse.

As for lousy color registration, I have no simple solution. It has always seemed like there SHOULD be a way to do it in CMYK, but I've yet to discover it - and I've tried, believe me.

[JVJ]

I never know if I'm assuming too much or insulting someone when I mention some of these PS features, Yoc,
but when you're trying to clean up a misregistered image, I find it best to work on a new layer (which I name "corrections") that sits above the Background layer.

The clone stamp has a setting for "Sample All Layers" which allows you to work on the "corrections" layer with the tool - covering up, but not changing, the Background layer. This also eliminates the need to duplicate the background layer.

You have to make all the pixel corrections before dealing with the color adjustments.

And did you know that you can make a rough selection around a misregistered color and then use the [Select][Color Range] tool to find just the particular color WITHIN that rough selection? It could help under certain circumstances.

Here's an example of fixing a VERY misregistered cover:


In the left example I drew a rough selection around the areas that needed to be replaced with yellow. (I use a Wacom graphics tablet, so it was just a freehand selection using the lasso tool). Then I moved the selection over to an area that has the color I want to use (center image). Hit [Ctrl] J (on a PC) to "Jump" the selection to its own layer. Then I moved ([Ctrl] drag) the contents of the new layer over the misregistered blue (right example). It's not perfect, but you get the idea.

If I were doing a lot of these, then I would continually be merging my next corrections into the "corrections" layer so I'd only ever have two (temporarily three at times) layers in my file at any time.

[Yoc]

Thanks Jim, please assume I'm an beginner. I don't mind at all being told something I might already know and there are sure to be some readers out there that might well be new to all of this.

I've just tried my first session using Adjustment layers.  Thanks for letting me know about this!
How I used it was to find all my correction settings using adjustment layers.  I then saved each and later ran them in a batch file on the rest of the book saving each page as a tiff so I can double check each, fine tune if needed and finally crop and save them all again one last time as jpgs using IrFanview in a batch file.

How I would attack your above cover registration problem is slightly different.  While I can see your method could work fine I have noticed with these old books that copying a colour from one spot on a page doesn't necessarily mean that colour will look correct where I paste it.  In your example I would follow your step one but instead of going to step two and using 'ctl-J' (another new trick I'd never tried before!) I would use the clone tool sampling from just beside the area I wanted to correct onto the highlighted area.  I find that helps the correction look natural and saves me having to go back and correct the cloned area again to fine tune it.

The examples pics you've been using look great btw - very helpful!

Thanks again for sharing your techniques,
-Yoc

[JVJ]

I'm glad I was able to talk you into trying adjustment layers, Yoc,
I don't think you'll ever go back to the "old" ways. Using an Action to apply them is smart. You can also simply select the layers and DRAG them into a new file to apply the same adjustments.

My workflow is to crop and straighten first, then clean up, then color adjust. I can't remember if it's in PS7, but check and see if there is a [Filter][Distort][Lens Correction] tool. IF there is, this is what I use to straighten my scans. The second tool in the upper left corner allows you to draw a line horizontally or vertically along an edge that should be straightened and the tool will fix it for you. Or sometimes I just use the crop tool and rotate the selection until it aligns with a straight border and then move it out to include a margin (if needed) and double click inside the box to apply the crop and straighten.

I use the clone stamp tool and healing brush or spot healing brush tools about equally. With the clone stamp, making a selection around the area you want to clean up makes the whole process less delicate (and, for me, faster).

Keep playing with those AL's. Now I must get back to ImageS 11.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[narfstar]

If you would like to see just how amazing JVJ's abilities are check the before and after in the JVJ ftp folder. He did them in a short period of time on the fly.
I am sure he can give others some hints. I make no claims to be an editor of scans just a scanner of books. I leave editing to those with an eye and ability. I also prefer raw scans anyway as more like holding the actual book. For that reason I offer my JVJ book scans in their raw form awaiting Rez's edits. Those that can not wait and those that like raw scans can get them. Then when the bright like new ones are ready I will replace the raw. So if you want the raw get while their available.

[JVJ]

You're extremely generous with your praise, narf,
and I thank you, but those examples were intended to further the question in this thread. They weren't to showcase my "amazing abilities." I don't want to turn this into a p*ssing contest about who can do what how fast. Like the stories in those wonderful western comics, there's ALWAYS someone who's faster and better than you. So let's not go there.

What I was noticing was that (on my screen) some of the raw scans appeared to be accentuating the flaws (which, heaven knows, abound in my comics). The scans seem too red and too yellow, as if there was some color correction being done at the scanning level. And then those flaws (especially the "foxing" or brown spots) seemed to be retained in higher contrast in the published scans. Perhaps I was looking at the files too early in their "processing" but it was bothering me a bit, so I tried to see if I could alleviate those aspects with quick and dirty adjustments.

Now I know that you don't particularly subscribe to "clean" comics, and I wasn't trying to make them perfect - just less blatant in their depiction of the flaws that exist.

And the question remains: How Much Cleanup? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill, or are you just happy to see me?

And those really were two-minute adjustments. If you want to see what I REALLY do when I clean up something for my magazine, here's a 1"x

[Yoc]

Hi Jim,
Nice work on the scans.  Nothing flashy, just nice.  That's the way I like to see them.  I know I'll never approach the levels of corrections that Cimm is capable of doing but I'm good with that.  I'm sure Narf wasn't asking for anyone to try and trump your works btw.  I think we all can appreciate each others works without getting competitive about it.

I can identify with your 110 yr old example above.  My work on PhantomLady 19 has me zooming in about that close at times trying to correct the damn registration problems.

Thanks again for all your pointers here.
-Yoc

[JVJ]

Hi Jim,
Nice work on the scans.  Nothing flashy, just nice.  That's the way I like to see them.  I know I'll never approach the levels of corrections that Cimm is capable of doing but I'm good with that.  I'm sure Narf wasn't asking for anyone to try and trump your works btw.  I think we all can appreciate each others works without getting competitive about it.

I can identify with your 110 yr old example above.  My work on PhantomLady 19 has me zooming in about that close at times trying to correct the damn registration problems.

Thanks again for all your pointers here.
-Yoc

I was trying to keep anyone from misinterpreting narf's comments. I am never competing with anyone but myself and don't want anyone to think that I might be. I was just complaining to John Benson tonight as we were reviewing a Harvey Horror artist index that we're doing that "I don't WANT to be a responsible adult." The notion that I might have the final say on who drew what in 75 or 80 comic books is actually pretty daunting. To have someone here think that I might be saying that "This is how you should edit your scans" is just as scary.

What I WANT to know is "Is there a consensus of what is ENOUGH correction?" and "Is there a consensus of what ISN'T enough?"

After working that close, do your eyes ever get so tired that you can't focus? Mine do.

I work on an "Overlay" layer that's between the Background layer and two Adjustment Layers ("Levels" and "Threshold"). This allows me to paint on the Overlay layer with 10% black to pull the gray lines back to black and 10% white to open up the clogged cross-hatching. BUt is it ever time-consuming. That line drawing is the penultimate illustration (or the anti-penultimate one) in the next issue of ImageS. It's going to be one of only three or four line pieces in the issue and darn but they take up so much more time than do the color scans - which only need to be 400 ppi instead of 1600.

Don't I WISH that scan was zoomed in. That's what 100% looks like at 1600 ppi.

I should just print them as grayscale and forget about it, but, as I mentioned earlier, I'm crazy.

Peace, (and goodnight), Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

I doubt you'll ever find a true consensus Jim.
I like scans on a tan page but not BRILLIANT white.  I'm not a big fan of school bus yellow pages, but that's just me.  I do wish we would all agree on a DPI level though.  150dpi is passable on a monitor but I feel 200-300 dpi would be so much better.  But again, when it comes to scans we are all beggars and can't be choosers.
We are talking about scans of very rare books here.  I think most of us are happy just be able to see them, period.  Personally I'm happier when I see a paper scan over a fiche or digital camera scan and I'd think most would agree with that BUT there are books so rare or expensive that's likely the best we will ever get.  I also like to see a book cover to cover.  Many don't care about the ads.  There are two camps on that idea.
In the end the scanner sets his own standards and we as an audience can only encourage them to try new things such as your suggestions here have helped me.
On a different note I'd suspect that many GA readers here are NOT fans of the gaudy colouring that DC and Marvel have been using in the reprint collections.  And I still am shocked at how Marvel hasn't been upfront about the use of modern artists to recreate books they claim as originals on the cover. 

-Yoc

[JVJ]

Hi Jim,

I can identify with your 110 yr old example above.  My work on PhantomLady 19 has me zooming in about that close at times trying to correct the damn registration problems.

-Yoc

You should stick a page from PL 19 into my ftp folder, Yoc, and see if I can help out a bit. Stick two - one you've corrected (so I have something to shoot for) and one you haven't gotten to yet. No promises, but at least I can "play" around with it in my "spare" time (when my eyes start unfocussing).

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[cimmerian32]

Wow...  I'm sick and busy for a few days, and there's all kinds of things I have to reply to in one thread...

First, let me side with Jim as far this NOT being a p*ssing contest.  This is a very interesting exchange of ideas for alternative editing procedures.  I am no expert, having never touched Photoshop until I decided that I wanted to scan my beloved comics...  since then, it has been an ongoing exercise in self-education and experimentation, and Jim has highlighted my shortcomings in the nicest manner possible... 

Please, Jim, continue to share your techniques and pointers!

Second, I HATE the "official" scans that DC and Marvel offer, as they are as far removed from the original  look and feel of the comics as it is possible to get, both in coloring, texture, and in some cases, noticeably redrawn pages... 

Third, on the subject of interior paper color/texture...  they should never be whitened to the extent that you lose the texture of paper, i.e. flat white...  anyting from off-white to slightly yellow is much preferable to me.

Fourth, anything I post is me stating my opinion, not me laying down rules or suggesting regulation of scanning protocol.  As Yoc said, these are scans of rare and highly sought after books.  Those of us who scan do so because we love the books themselves, and want to share them with as many people as possible.  Far be it from any of us to dictate the hows and wherefores for someone to meet our expectations.  As is stated quite often on the DC++ hubs, in the scanner areas, If you don't like how something is scanned, buy it yourself, and offer an alternative scan.  I would love to see, or do, a paper scan replacement for all of the fiche scans available now, but until that day, the fiche and photo scans are there to fill the holes, and I appreciate the efforts of the people who have provided them.

Back on topic... 

Cimm

[Yoc]

Well said Cimm.
And if you have any tricks to share of your own please do!

-Yoc

[rez]

How much cleanup?
We'll I have two pennies worth of experience here but I'll give an opinion anyhow.Personally I'm satisfied viewing a scan that is clean of defects and tanned pages stopping short of brown is fine.

I guess for the most part I'm leaning toward a presentation similar to what one might find in a physical general reading copy of a book, in that the lines aren't muddled, panels somewhat aligned with the page edges as well as can be expected, and colors as they might have appeared when new.

Enjoy covers doctored up towards a cleaner image: eliminating creases, holes, and most wear marks.

The browning on interior covers is the big nasty as well as foxing. If there is an easy way to rid a book of them and still retain the normality of the comic's appearence it would be good to learn. 

I can copy/paste whatever the overall light tanning or white coloring of a book might be, covering the browning around the perimeter or in large areas but correcting colors between wording would be too laborious without some type of lightening mechanism being in use of which I presently have little knowledge of but am learning.

To the question of 'how much' it has to come down to a balance between time involvement and practicality which then involves what particular book one is dealing with. I noticed the Yellowjacket 9 has no cover available in the Heritage archives which leaves me the thought of more a rare book, particulary a rarity lending itself to be a book presented for scanning and thus one which might warrant more time being laid out in the scanning work. One that might be worth scanning at 300kb for future work if ever it were to come up.

[JonTheScanner]

Many (probably most) inside covers are black and white and originally were quite white.  What I do with those is convert to gray scale and then increase the contrast quite a bit which get rid of most or all of of the edge browning.

[cimmerian32]

Here is the inside front cover for Strange Worlds #5, before...



and after...



How I did it...

image/adjustments/seperate color/red -100 to black
............................................./yellow -100 to black
............................................./magenta -100 to black
............................................./white -100 to black
............................................./black +100 to black
............................................./neutral +6 to black

repeated 2 or 3 times (sorry, I don't remember)...

[JVJ]

Beautiful job, Cimm, and here's another way:

One Channel Mixer adjustment layer set to Monochrome (2 clicks)
One Levels adjustment layer with the white eyedropper clicked on what you want white and the black eyedropper clicked on what you want black (6 clicks). Adjust the gray middle slider to your taste. Total time = about 30 seconds and less than 10 clicks.

Try it and tell me what you get.

Peace (and good night), Jim (|:{>

[cimmerian32]

Please tell me I'm doing something wrong...

I opened an adjustment layer, clicked on levels, clicked with the white eyedropper on the white area, and clicked with the black one on a black area, and clicked on a gray area with the mid-tone eyedropper...  and got stains showing up I didn't know were there, weird tints in the blue range to the magenta range, loss of some of the grey tones, and no true blacks???

Where did I err?

[JVJ]

It's because you need to apply the adjustments to a grayscale image, Cimm,
and that's what the first Channel Mixer Adjustment layer accomplishes when you  set it to Monochrome (just click the monochrome check box and then okay).

And I'd use the gray slider rather than trying to find a neutral gray, but YMMV.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[cimmerian32]

HA!  Idiocy rears its head a 4 in the morning...  sorry, mate, I missed the monochrome instruction

Will try again after work.

Cimm